Front Driveshaft Removal

[pools2do]

Hi Everyone! Would there be any reprocussions to removing the front driveshaft? If the H2 is AWD ( I don't go offroad anyways), by removing the driveshaft I was thinking that it would have more power (RHP). I have a supercharger installed. Any help is always appreciated!!

Bill

[CHarris]

Some of the guys over on the Silverado SS forum have successfully removed the front driveshaft on thier AWD trucks (same transfer case) to dyno. They seem to get away with it, but GM swears it is bad. It won't give you any more total power than you have now. It would just send all of it to the rear.

I like posts like this. This is worthwhile communication. Some around here are all about name calling and other nonsense.

[CHarris]

Here's a question... If we dyno on a AWD dyno will the rear show 60% of the total HP and the front dyno 40% of the total. I can't find a local AWD dyno to answer the question myself.

[CHarris]

But the transfer case is supposed to sense slip and redirect power to the wheels that are not slipping... So I would expect that if the front driveshaft is removed, the power would all go to the rear. Now the issue as I understand it is that the slipping in the transfercase may over heat it and damamge it by running it without the front driveshaft. Is this correct?

[CHarris]

Originally posted by sfox:
I was under the impression that the traction control worked more from side to side than front to rear. So if drivers side front looses traction, the power is diverted to passenger side front. The front to back thing wouldn't make any sense as I thought the power ratio split was determined by the gears in the transfer case, not something computer controlled like the side to side power split. If it was front ot rear traction control and an an H2 gets high centered, were would the power go? As it is, a high centered H2 will spin one front and one rear (unless the rear has been locked), or at least I'm pretty sure that is what happens.....anybody?

S

I think you are right about traction control in general... but the transfer case is a viscuous coupling that will redirect power front to rear or vice versa depending on what it senses by itself. The traction control as I understand it directs power to left or right independently based on which wheel is slippings and which one isn't.
I know that one of these offroad heavy guys has the answer... we just have to wait for someone to pick up this thread.

[Hummie2]

Sorry guys your off by alittle bit. There is no viscous coupling in the H2. Pull the front drive shaft and you will have to go to 4lock to get the truck to move. It won't move in 4high open because there is a differential in the transfercase and it is normaly unlocked until you go to 4lock(either high or low). The power flow will simply take the path of least resistance. You can prove this by jacking one wheel up with a trolley jack in 4high open and lightly step on the brake enough to light the stop lights(this will deactivate the trac control) then try to drive off. It won't move until you let off the brake and trac control senses the spinning wheel (or wheels) and applies the brake to the spinning wheel(s) to add enough resistance to send power to the wheel(s) that still have traction.

[TXSUT]

Originally posted by CHarris:
the transfer case is a viscuous coupling

Originally posted by Hummie2:
There is no viscous coupling in the H2

CHarris, is that the type of "valuable contribution" to the website you were gloating about in that other thread?

[pools2do]

So to make a long story short, "It ain't gonna happen". I was really hoping I could remove the front shaft without any form of conflict. I was wondering about the computer traction issue and if there was a way around all that junk.
Hey thanks guys for ALL the input here. This forum is Great!

[KenP]

HummersGoneWild has removed his front shaft at the track. You may want to check with him on it. He may know a trick or two.

[Hummie2]

So to make a long story short, "It ain't gonna happen". I was really hoping I could remove the front shaft without any form of conflict.

Maybe I wasn't completely clear on my description. You can do it, but you will have to run in 4high lock. My question is why would you? You are sending all of the power to 1 axle instead of dividing it between 2, thus doubling the torque load on that axle. Sure you will get rid of a small amount of gear resistance (the power being sent through the Morse type chain) to the front axle, but at what price? See PhilD and my coments in the rear cover thread about the lube/heat problems we are seeing.

Don

[HUMMERcustoms.com/TAZ]

I have been wanting to dyno My rig but it is to long for the only AWD that i found so to dyno it the front shaft will have to be removed. What effect would this have on dyno numbers? I was actually told and I'm sorry I can not remember who but that You can not dyno without the front drive shaft. That has to be bull If HGW is pulling front drive to run on pace runs etc. I would like to dyno before and after SC or turbo but a little confused when i thought it would be Ok to pull front shaft for dyno, until this guy told me it will not work, which it has been expressed here that is not so that it should be Ok. I trust the info here more than most anyone else but I'm confused as to what the numbers would mean since you are not getting all power to rear on dyno. Man I hope i'm making since to someone and can explain what to expect with front shaft off during dyno.

Thanks for any help

TAZ (Rick0

[CHarris]

Originally posted by Hummie2:
Sorry guys your off by alittle bit. There is no viscous coupling in the H2. Pull the front drive shaft and you will have to go to 4lock to get the truck to move. It won't move in 4high open because there is a differential in the transfercase and it is normaly unlocked until you go to 4lock(either high or low). The power flow will simply take the path of least resistance. You can prove this by jacking one wheel up with a trolley jack in 4high open and lightly step on the brake enough to light the stop lights(this will deactivate the trac control) then try to drive off. It won't move until you let off the brake and trac control senses the spinning wheel (or wheels) and applies the brake to the spinning wheel(s) to add enough resistance to send power to the wheel(s) that still have traction.

Thanks for getting that all straightened out. I had been told that the Silverado SS, Yukon Denali, and H2 all shared the same transfer case. I got bum doped and spread it a little further.

Anyway, here's the correct dope...

The Silverado SS transfer case works pretty much how I described it... it is a NVG-149 with a viscuous coupling. As it really turns out the big Denali is a BW4482 and the H2 is the BW4484. All of which run at more or less 40/60 power split front/rear which is probably the source of confusion. Who knew GM would run so many different transfer cases all accomplishing more or less the same job.

So, now that I'm all clear on that... does someone know the max input power of the H2's BW4484?

I know the Silverado SS is rated at 2200 lb ft input to the transfer case. This would be a good spec to know and I cna't find it anywhere. Borg Warners website is not heavy on product specs.

Sorry for sharing confusion.

[DRTYFN]

Originally posted by CHarris:
...I got bum doped and spread it a little further.

...Sorry for sharing confusion.

You must be a Democrat.

[CHarris]

This is more than a little off topic...

But to answer the question - No.

Democrats don't like to go to war and don't work in warzones as civilians.

There are lots of democrats in Oregon, though. How do you fit in down there? Do you have a military background?

[HUMMERcustoms.com/TAZ]

Ok if I'm absorbing the info in this thread that I'm trying to figure out what happens to dyno My rig with front shaft out. If I understand I will need to remove the front shaft and lock transfer in 4 wheel hi lock is this correct since there is only rear wheel drive dyno's to use. Will this work and will it put all the power to rear? Somebody please give me some direction here. I'm hoping to dyno next weekend if I can understand how it should be done correctly with front shaft out.
I do not want to mess My rig up so i know there is somebody that knows what I should do if I have misunderstood the thread.
Thanks
TAZ

[frank6150]

Whatever you do Taz just don't listen to CHarris, he carries about as much useful info in him as a big fat stinkin pile of dog ****.

[KenP]

Taz, put the front on jack stands (several), leave the shaft in, hit the gas. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[frank6150]

Originally posted by CHarris:
This is more than a little off topic...

But to answer the question - No.

Democrats don't like to go to war and don't work in warzones as civilians.

There are lots of democrats in Oregon, though. How do you fit in down there? Do you have a military background?

I find it odd how you can even have anything to say about Oregon or DRTY given the fact that you were in attendance at the Dean for 2004 meetup. The fact you love Dean and live in D.C. makes me wonder if you even own any vehicles with more than 92hp that don't fit comfortably in the back of a pickup truck.

[HUMMERcustoms.com/TAZ]

Thanks Ken
I had not thought about that. I will call dyno guys in Dallas and ask if they mind doing like that. They can get front up and then they strap it down first so I do not see why they would not go with that.
TAZ

Originally posted by KenP:
Taz, put the front on jack stands (several), leave the shaft in, hit the gas. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[drmiles]

OK, if you put the front on jack stands (ie no traction) in the front, will all the power go to the front. I broke a front axle and the truck would just sit there and go clank,clank,clank. No foward motion. Unless I put in 4 hi lock. Then it would move again still clanking only slower.

Originally posted by KenP:
Taz, put the front on jack stands (several), leave the shaft in, hit the gas. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[CHarris]

Originally posted by frank6150:
Whatever you do Taz just don't listen to CHarris, he carries about as much useful info in him as a big fat stinkin pile of dog ****.

I think it's time toss Frank version 6150 into the incinerator. He just doesn't perform. No value added. Maybe Frank version 6151 can do better.

[CHarris]

Originally posted by frank6150:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CHarris:
This is more than a little off topic...

But to answer the question - No.

Democrats don't like to go to war and don't work in warzones as civilians.

There are lots of democrats in Oregon, though. How do you fit in down there? Do you have a military background?

I find it odd how you can even have anything to say about Oregon or DRTY given the fact that you were in attendance at the Dean for 2004 meetup. The fact you love Dean and live in D.C. makes me wonder if you even own any vehicles with more than 92hp that don't fit comfortably in the back of a pickup truck. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All right... frank why don't you go and call up paragon on the whiny bitch chat line (It's only 99 cents a minute or so I read somewhere on this forum). For you to have seen me surely indicates that you must have been there. Except I wasn't even in the country... so you must be confused again you cock stalker.

Since I gave Paragon a math lesson, I can give you a free geography lesson... Washington state is that clearly delineated area north of OREGON, south of Canada (where you keep your second residence), and east of the pacific ocean. Do you understand? Washington DC is that place you attend democratic conventions and try to worm your way into frame on C-SPAN so you can look important to your fake-ass H2 buds. I hope that one works out for you since you seem to need it so badly. Loser.

If theres a Dean lover here it must be you. I'll bet you have a framed cancelled check above your desk.... the check you contributed to the Dean Campaign. Too bad you gave so much to a waste. I guess if he'd won it might have gotten you on stage with him at you local stop. Or perhaps you were vying for a night in the Dean White House? Hmmm... the world may never know.

I know you didn't serve this country you little **** stain. That is unless pot shots on internet forums is what you consider service. It appears to count for paragon, so I can see where you get your role models. If he served he'd never own up to it because he'd be ashamed of how low he has dropped since taking off the uniform. No people like you two never serve. An easy chair and a remote is you idea of service.

I'd like to comment positively on your little flag there - the skull and crossbones... symbol of the internet E-thug. The thing is... yours needs a rainbow under if you really want to seem tough (at least not in a gay leather boy type of way).

Did mommy and daddy buy you the H2 or did you just ride the coat tails of some other more successful person. You sure ride a lot of coat tails here.

[CHarris]

Originally posted by KenP:
Taz, put the front on jack stands (several), leave the shaft in, hit the gas. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

At least some people are trying to help answer questions around here! Thanks Ken and Dr. Miles.

[PARAGON]

Sport, if you want to spar by all means, give it a good shot. But first try a little research, something you have consistently failed miserably at here, before you make your infantile attempts at retorts. First, a couple of members here are aware of my "math skilz" and the recruitment of me due to them. Secondly, don't play the little served your county bull**** because it is insulting to all of us who actually have. If you were like many long-time members here you'd be aware that I gave up a college football scholarship to serve my county via the Marine Corps upon high school graduation. Now, let me cut you off before you make more stupid assumptions, my scholarship was based on academics not my athletic ability, I had several scholarships that I turned down that was strictly academic. Point being, I wanted to serve my country because it was the right thing to do and something that every male member of my family has done to my knowledge.

I gave you every opportunity to apologize for the gaff you made, but you chose to lie about what was already written and do and say anything except what was right. Now you want to offend all those who served this country by making a weak attempt at a jab, by somehow saying that you are a better person because you served. While I did serve, I can assure you that whether or not one has served his country in the military is not the measure of a man. If you continue this, let be more specific about a friendly warning, you WILL be hounded at every post you make and you will never have any credibility on this site. So, if you are anything more than a troll, I suggest you square away yourself or it will get very ugly for you here.

[KenP]

Posted by CHarris:
I know you didn't serve this country you little **** stain. I don't know if Spike served in the military, but he does protect and serve on a daily basis. Thanks Spike.

[CHarris]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
Sport, if you want to spar by all means, give it a good shot. But first try a little research, something you have consistently failed miserably at here, before you make your infantile attempts at retorts. First, a couple of members here are aware of my "math skilz" and the recruitment of me due to them. Secondly, don't play the little served your county bull**** because it is insulting to all of us who actually have. If you were like many long-time members here you'd be aware that I gave up a college football scholarship to serve my county via the Marine Corps upon high school graduation. Now, let me cut you off before you make more stupid assumptions, my scholarship was based on academics not my athletic ability, I had several scholarships that I turned down that was strictly academic. Point being, I wanted to serve my country because it was the right thing to do and something that every male member of my family has done to my knowledge.

I gave you every opportunity to apologize for the gaff you made, but you chose to lie about what was already written and do and say anything except what was right. Now you want to offend all those who served this country by making a weak attempt at a jab, by somehow saying that you are a better person because you served. While I did serve, I can assure you that whether or not one has served his country in the military is not the measure of a man. If you continue this, let be more specific about a friendly warning, you WILL be hounded at every post you make and you will never have any credibility on this site. So, if you are anything more than a troll, I suggest you square away yourself or it will get very ugly for you here.

There isn't enough room here for new trolls... You've already spoiled it. Troll hunt elsewhere. I'm only on your ass because you decided to try to be a rump ranger on me. If you simply knock the **** off we could talk about stuff that matters instead of flinging insults. This doesn't accomplish anything but give you a higher post count as if that mattered. So what do you want? Insults or real posts? And about the credibility... I'm not on here to look important or gain credibility. I came to share a few low cost tips (low cost is definitely relative when the H2 is involved) and let people know more about the Magnacharger and the various stages of performance that can be obtained from it as I move through them.

You've done nothing but make threats and sling insults and I don't see where it comes from. I didn't have issue with you or anyone until you jumped on me. I don't play that way and I don't find it particularly fun or interesting. It's a waste of time and I'm really surprised that you get off on this nonsense.

Why don't you square yourself away and call off the lap dogs. You're not doing anything to raise the membership of this site with the insults. You're keeping it small and insignificant.

I saw that post about the chrome front valance. That was useful.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by CHarris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
Sport, if you want to spar by all means, give it a good shot. But first try a little research, something you have consistently failed miserably at here, before you make your infantile attempts at retorts. First, a couple of members here are aware of my "math skilz" and the recruitment of me due to them. Secondly, don't play the little served your county bull**** because it is insulting to all of us who actually have. If you were like many long-time members here you'd be aware that I gave up a college football scholarship to serve my county via the Marine Corps upon high school graduation. Now, let me cut you off before you make more stupid assumptions, my scholarship was based on academics not my athletic ability, I had several scholarships that I turned down that was strictly academic. Point being, I wanted to serve my country because it was the right thing to do and something that every male member of my family has done to my knowledge.

I gave you every opportunity to apologize for the gaff you made, but you chose to lie about what was already written and do and say anything except what was right. Now you want to offend all those who served this country by making a weak attempt at a jab, by somehow saying that you are a better person because you served. While I did serve, I can assure you that whether or not one has served his country in the military is not the measure of a man. If you continue this, let be more specific about a friendly warning, you WILL be hounded at every post you make and you will never have any credibility on this site. So, if you are anything more than a troll, I suggest you square away yourself or it will get very ugly for you here.

There isn't enough room here for new trolls... You've already spoiled it. Troll hunt elsewhere. I'm only on your ass because you decided to try to be a rump ranger on me. If you simply knock the **** off we could talk about stuff that matters instead of flinging insults. This doesn't accomplish anything but give you a higher post count as if that mattered. So what do you want? Insults or real posts? And about the credibility... I'm not on here to look important or gain credibility. I came to share a few low cost tips (low cost is definitely relative when the H2 is involved) and let people know more about the Magnacharger and the various stages of performance that can be obtained from it as I move through them.

You've done nothing but make threats and sling insults and I don't see where it comes from. I didn't have issue with you or anyone until you jumped on me. I don't play that way and I don't find it particularly fun or interesting. It's a waste of time and I'm really surprised that you get off on this nonsense.

Why don't you square yourself away and call off the lap dogs. You're not doing anything to raise the membership of this site with the insults. You're keeping it small and insignificant.

I saw that post about the chrome front valance. That was useful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Do you have any idea of what you say from one post to the next? If I simply knock off what ****? Dumbass, you are the one that brought me into this thread with your bull**** about math and my serving my country. By the way, don't flatter yourself. Continuing to hound you (oh, big threat) is like picking the cashews out of the mixed nuts can. I can take it or leave it but the cashews taste so much better. And no, I didn't cut and paste my "big insult string" from another post. While I might have used similar comments in the past, I had told you in a post before that, that it can get down to the lockerroom insults if that's where you want it.

You're a cheeseball in the biggest way. You get with your little buddies and talk about how funny it was that I posted the true price that Clarence had for the radix and then say something stupid about how you and DrMiles paid less when the whole point was that you were referring to a year old post when someone referenced it costing $5500. Geez, you must be a freakin midget because of so much **** that flies over your head.

I've "done nothing but make threats and sling insults and (you) don't see where it comes from" (hey, I copied and pasted that). You screw up and bad mouth a long time member, lie about what you did and say that you didn't do it, make excuse after excuse, do your best Bill Clinton and dodge it by changing the subject in every sentence and never simply apologize for the gaff and you "don't see where it comes from." Figures.

[CHarris]

Get this through your skull...

I will never apologize to you for anything. I don't care how long you have been here because that doesn't mean a thing. It doesn't make you better or worse than anyone else.

In most forums the guys who have been around the longest are the most knowledgeable. Your mastered field appears to be weak insults. I'll ask you for help on that if I ever need a tip. Other than that you don't bring much to the table.

You can continue to say that I lied and believe it all you want. It still won't be true. You can compare me to clinton, too. It still doesn't make it true.

Why do you think I would waste my time researching you or what you've said about anything. It involves wading through pages of nonsense posts and insults (some original and some quoted). Who cares?

Is this forum and your "tough guy" rep all you have left in life? It's comical that you must defend this to the last finger spasm on your keyboard. Why don't you grab a bottle and console yourself... better yet why don't you head down to the corner bar with all the other washed up "tough guys"?

I'll bet there is a bumper sticker on your truck that says "They can take my keyboard and forum name when they pry it from my cold dead fingers"

All this because of a ebonics joke and a tip to comparison shop for the best deal.

Give it a rest.

[PARAGON]

NO! I won't.

I have never asked you to apologize to me. You see, you have made my point that I have succinctly stated from the beginning. You will say anything without any research regardless of the consequences or implications. You lied, plain and simple and you don't give a **** that you did because it must obviously come very natural to you.

So, keep it up. You can't help but be the village idiot and more will make light of your schizoid comments and I will from time to time will take pleasure in pointing out your stupidity.

[Klaus]

Originally posted by CHarris:
Give it a rest.

Please take your own advice. We're tired of reading your drivel.

[frank6150]

Originally posted by CHarris:
All right... frank why don't you go and call up paragon on the whiny bitch chat line (It's only 99 cents a minute or so I read somewhere on this forum).
<span class="ev_code_RED">It would seem you have a thing for guy on guy action and calling 900 numbers... Sick pud...</span>

For you to have seen me surely indicates that you must have been there. Except I wasn't even in the country... so you must be confused again you cock stalker.
<span class="ev_code_RED">Wow, let's not forget that there was this crazy invention called an airplane that flies folks from place to place. You must be right cause lord knows you would be huddled in the corner somewhere crying for mommy if you ever had to attempt to ford your way through anything more complex than the glory hole at some gay bar bathroom.</span>

Since I gave Paragon a math lesson, I can give you a free geography lesson... Washington state is that clearly delineated area north of OREGON, south of Canada (where you keep your second residence), and east of the pacific ocean. Do you understand? Washington DC is that place you attend democratic conventions and try to worm your way into frame on C-SPAN so you can look important to your fake-ass H2 buds. I hope that one works out for you since you seem to need it so badly. Loser.
<span class="ev_code_RED">blah blah blah...</span>

If theres a Dean lover here it must be you. I'll bet you have a framed cancelled check above your desk.... the check you contributed to the Dean Campaign. Too bad you gave so much to a waste. I guess if he'd won it might have gotten you on stage with him at you local stop. Or perhaps you were vying for a night in the Dean White House? Hmmm... the world may never know.
<span class="ev_code_RED">I dunno bubba, you were on the roster of attendees not I. </span>

I know you didn't serve this country you little **** stain. That is unless pot shots on internet forums is what you consider service. It appears to count for paragon, so I can see where you get your role models. If he served he'd never own up to it because he'd be ashamed of how low he has dropped since taking off the uniform. No people like you two never serve. An easy chair and a remote is you idea of service.
<span class="ev_code_RED">Actually Paragon would be and is at times an icredible role model. He is quite successful and extremely smart, I have learned much from him in my time here. What I have learned from you is that you are a liar, a class A retard, and a waste of earths valuable oxygen. As for whether or not I served, no I didn't. If you have then I commend you on that, but that is all you'll get from me.</span>

I'd like to comment positively on your little flag there - the skull and crossbones... symbol of the internet E-thug. The thing is... yours needs a rainbow under if you really want to seem tough (at least not in a gay leather boy type of way).
<span class="ev_code_RED">Here we go again with the gay comments... Please try to keep the homoness out of your posts in the future.</span>

Did mommy and daddy buy you the H2 or did you just ride the coat tails of some other more successful person. You sure ride a lot of coat tails here.
<span class="ev_code_RED">I know my success must scare you quite a bit but please try not turn it around like you have done in most of your posts.</span>

Good jabs Harris, too bad you hit like a girl. Maybe get a gym membership or something.

[DRTYFN]

Originally posted by CHarris:
This is more than a little off topic...

But to answer the question - No.

Democrats don't like to go to war and don't work in warzones as civilians.

There are lots of democrats in Oregon, though. How do you fit in down there? Do you have a military background?

Are you trying to get into a pissing match? You better scamper back over to that other board where you're bragging about schooling us and find a rock to hide under.

BTW, it really too bad you got turned down for moderator. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[DRTYFN]

BTW, last time I was up in Bremerton I met this chick named Teresa. She was naughty. She's really good at anal tongue-darting though.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[CHarris]

It figures that you would have to go to LS1 tech to get some real tech. You actually listened for once. Not much mechanical tech over here. If it isn't about a lift kit or offroading it isn't discussed. If there is the slightest hint that a H2 could use some improvement you freak out.

There isn't much of a knowledge exchange over here and they won't tolerate your bull**** over there. You've seen what they think of you already. The **** slingers over here make the stereotype that people judge the majority by.
I wondered why H2 owners never wave... I don't have to wonder anymore.

As far as the pissing match goes... what do you accomplish by arguing over the internet? Nothing except turning people off to this website. When I first came in I looked past that little gangbanger mentality that about 4 or 5 of you have. I shouldn't have. There's something seriously wrong with a website that allows that type of behaviour. The elcova-H2 membership will never grow to challenge other websites in traffic or consumers reached until the little gang is squashed out.

So go ahead and email each other your big congratulations on scoring one for the H2 ******* club if you like. I really don't care. You reap what you sow. These exchanges have served to further document for all to see what you guys value over here.

As far as that post string on LS1Tech goes... some of the NW folks were interested in what H2's have to offer and they look in over here from time to time. Looks like they formed their own opinion of your site without me having to say anything. Good work asswipes! You guys better stick together because no one else would help you.

Oh and your "teresa" is probably the one that we see out at the bars all the time. She has cold sores and leaves with any jackass who'll buy her a drink. How much did you have to spend on her to get that case of genital warts? I'd recommend getting tested for HIV, too. From what I heard about her you might be in trouble.

[Klaus]

Cory - Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Good riddance!

[Kevin B]

I would never have any interest in supercharging my H2 and most people wouldn't. Off-roading may not be your thing, but it's what the truck was built for, not drag racing, and a lot of folks here are good at it and enjoy it.

Makes me wonder what kind of reception you would get on a street site comming in wondering about the offroad capabilites of a Camaro http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif.

Paragon, your a star. I think they like you http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[pools2do]

I haven't figured out yet if there is a clear definitive answer other than attempting to "jack up the front end" to see if it drives. I think we got off the subject here.