Just finished DOI skid plate prototype

[bjc]

This will be powder coated and the bolts replaced with flathead allens for an even cleaner look. I wanted seemless and robust protection from the winch bumper backwards and that's what I got after a weekend with Matt at DeFelice Offroad. I will say more after I get a chance to beat it up this weekend. For now here's a picture:

22546

[Ipedog]

Hmmm. Interesting. Anything that is stronger than the tinfoil shield that is provided now is a big improvement.

http://ipedog.smugmug.com/photos/68467340-L.jpg


I do worry a bit about mud and heat build up with the solid plates shown where the OE tubular protection would typically go...

[Desert Dan]

Nice bjc,

is there anyway to make the front part one angle (smooth) without the step down?

Let us know when it will be available

[bjc]

Nice bjc,

is there anyway to make the front part one angle (smooth) without the step down?

Let us know when it will be available
The break provides a solid mounting surface to the frame - not sure if this is avoidable or not.

Regarding availability - Matt has the dimensions recorded and is likely ready to fabricate more as demand arises. I suppose he would incorporate design changes if I provided negative feedback, but like I said, I have not had a chance to test yet.

[Desert Dan]

I guess it is plenty solid then and in several pieces for service access?

Good Job

[Anti-BlInG]

Very nice. I like...:cool:

[evldave]

ok, I'll bite. A couple questions:

Thickness?

Have you tested full of mud (between skid plate and T-case)?

Any ventilation?

Please provide details of mounting points

Weight?

In the absence of any answers I have the following comments:

That's gonna weight 100# at least (3/16). Any less thickess and Steve from San Jose might as well use it. And the weight will have a significant impact on vehicle performance.

No ventilation=burned up tranny/t-case. I'd recommend adding a (free) transmission temp gauge. Too much and shut it down. Without a tranny temp test, I wouldn't recommend this to my worst enemy (mostly because it will break down on the trail and I'll be obligated to help them out no matter what).

Unless that's a fully sealed unit, mud will get up in between the tranny/t-case and skid plate. BAD NEWS. It will never come out. See tranny temp above.

Other than those fundamentals, at least it looks good. At a connoisseur of ghetto engineering, I have to give this (absent any responses) a C-. Many people who want to look good will love it, those that use their vehicles should avoid it because of the potential issues. Perfect for a Jeep Liberty...

[Sewie]

If he is planning on producing these there's a couple things I'd be concerned about.

What if you don't have the winch bumper? Will it transition okay with a stock bumper?
IMO the bumper should overlap the skid plate in the front.
I'd definitely want some kind of ventilation on the back half. If he's gonna sell it in 2-3 pieces that would work so you could use the OEM UCP.

[youngguns4x4]

ok, I'll bite. A couple questions:

Thickness?

Have you tested full of mud (between skid plate and T-case)?

Any ventilation?

Please provide details of mounting points

Weight?

In the absence of any answers I have the following comments:

That's gonna weight 100# at least (3/16). Any less thickess and Steve from San Jose might as well use it. And the weight will have a significant impact on vehicle performance.

No ventilation=burned up tranny/t-case. I'd recommend adding a (free) transmission temp gauge. Too much and shut it down. Without a tranny temp test, I wouldn't recommend this to my worst enemy (mostly because it will break down on the trail and I'll be obligated to help them out no matter what).

Unless that's a fully sealed unit, mud will get up in between the tranny/t-case and skid plate. BAD NEWS. It will never come out. See tranny temp above.

Other than those fundamentals, at least it looks good. At a [FONT='Times New Roman']connoisseur [/FtONT]of ghetto engineering, I have to give this (absent any responses) a C-. Many people who want to look good will love it, those that use their vehicles should avoid it because of the potential issues. Perfect for a Jeep Liberty...

I think i'll bite back. First off, I don't understand how the weight is going to have a huge impact on the vehicle performance. Do you hesitate to invite friends to go wheeling with you in fear of it effecting your h3's performance? Not to mention the fact that it isnt effecting the center gravity. Especially not anymore then anyones gobi roofrack.
If i was worried about vehicle weight my first choice of vehicle would not be a 4700 pound suv powered by an inline 5.
I don't think the tranny and transfercase heating up is going to be a problem. Indy cars are fully panned underneath and sit low as hell to the ground yet they dont have any cooling issues. If you bring up the side vents then look at desert trucks. There running thousands of miles at a time with bigger tires and motors and they are holding up. It looks to me in the picture that is posted the exhaust is sitting outside of the skidplate anyways. Even if for some reason my tranny were to overheat i would rather that happen then the darn thing to get smashed on a rock or the pan to crack and leak fluid out on the trail. Tread lightly wouldnt be to happy.
As for mud getting stuck in between it and never being able to get it out, it looks like the fabricator did a good job of keeping that in mind. I see quite a few holes for that problem. Not to mention you can just pressure wash it out.
It looks like the mounting points are pretty good useing the factory crossmembers. By the looks of the companys website it doesnt look that ghetto to me. If i was going to build a skid plate theres not much I would change. I see alot of good products coming out from smaller companys or just guys building it in there garage that someone always comes along and bashes. But you'll have that when you get a bunch of web wheelers going in and out of forums.

[HummBebe]

Good rebuttal. I think most concerns could be handled with some ventilation added. Easy to do.

I don't think cleaning would be an issue, if you actually "clean" the truck, pressure washing is just part of it.

Weight?... who cares, not enough to worry about. Only if you are installing, and some of the H2 guys on this board have installed UCP that weighs in excess of 100 lbs.

Looks nice to me, knowing that it is a "prototype"

I'm just glad someone is actually MAKING products for the H3.

Thanks Matt:D :D


PS, I'm not a "web wheeler"

[Wisha Haddan H3]

I would add a couple of drain holes at the bottom to help let water out.


I love the sliding action of a solid skid plate, but it looks like this setup encases the drivetrain and exhaust. That would seal out mud, but seal in a lot of heat. My Blazer Zr2 had solid plates (stock from the factory), but there was plenty of airflow around and over them to cool the underbody.

Mud isn't a big issue with me since there's not a lot where I wheel, but heat buildup in the deserts and high country is. The auto tranny has a cooling system, but the xfer case and manual tranny depend on airflow to cool off. And since I'm getting a 5 spd, I'd want a lot of ventilation and maybe some drain holes under there.

Let's see a side view!

[evldave]

ok, so the weight isn't an issue, I'm still curious as to thickness.

and I'm still not convinced this won't overheat the drivetrain. Take a fully open drivetrain and enclose it, and it's going to generate heat (even at 5-10 mph). Too much? I dunno, but those are usually long-term issues, so a temp gauge would be in order (anyone know what they run now?)

I wasn't concerned about the cleaning of the mud, more about it getting trapped between the solid plate and t-case or tranny. With the UCP, it's an open frame design, and most mud won't stay or will get washed out when you are driving in the rain (or by pressure washer). With a fully enclosed plate, you are going to get mud up in areas that doesn't even come out - the holes I saw don't look like it would be as easy to get the mud out. I guess time will tell.

I'm a huge fan of anyone doing this. Been working on my own because I'm too cheap to buy the UCP (but a busted wrist prevents me from doing anything right now). I'd just want to make sure there's some thought put into more than 'It will protect you from the rocks' - there are other things to worry about too.

[bjc]

Ok - here's naked H3 (OEM front skid plate still attached):

22593

Prototype Front Skid:

22595

Prototype Back Skid:

22594

[matt DOI]

ok, I'll bite. A couple questions:

Thickness?

Have you tested full of mud (between skid plate and T-case)?

Any ventilation?

Please provide details of mounting points

Weight?

In the absence of any answers I have the following comments:

That's gonna weight 100# at least (3/16). Any less thickess and Steve from San Jose might as well use it. And the weight will have a significant impact on vehicle performance.

No ventilation=burned up tranny/t-case. I'd recommend adding a (free) transmission temp gauge. Too much and shut it down. Without a tranny temp test, I wouldn't recommend this to my worst enemy (mostly because it will break down on the trail and I'll be obligated to help them out no matter what).

Unless that's a fully sealed unit, mud will get up in between the tranny/t-case and skid plate. BAD NEWS. It will never come out. See tranny temp above.

Other than those fundamentals, at least it looks good. At a connoisseur of ghetto engineering, I have to give this (absent any responses) a C-. Many people who want to look good will love it, those that use their vehicles should avoid it because of the potential issues. Perfect for a Jeep Liberty...
TO answer the thikness 3/16
the weight about 85 pounds
ventilation -if i go into production thare will be more slots and holes. the exhaust is off to the passenger side of the plate. as far as mud yes it will get in there but if you wash the truck you can also remove it. Over heating the t case does not seem to have affected Brians 10 hour drive from indy to DC.
the mountig points will be crush-nut zerts,along with the oem holes.

I bilt this skid plate so when you bash some thing under the truck you know what it is,and can stay in it if so you choose. it is the proto and made in about 15 hrs. if i get some intrest from it i will go in production.

As far as the skider being "ghetto engineering" all i can say is wow, never thought i would hear that in this forum. thanks for the input . i thought that H2 and H3 owners would like some hardcore parts too i hope some of you like it ,let me know . more pics at WWW.defeliceinnovations.com

[MarK M]

Matt DOI,

I am one of the lucky guys that got your winch system through HummerSolutions. I'm definately interested in this underprotection plate.

If the construction of this skid plate is similar to your winch kit, let me tell you guys, he makes quality product!

PM me some more info on price and when availability would be.

One more thing. The winch system currently doesnt have holes for the skid plate you have built. Is this something that I would need to do myself with a drill?

[MarK M]

one more thing.

is this one piece from the winch all the way to the back? The reason I ask is, dont you have to remove the front shield when changing oil?

It would be a pain to have to remove the whole skid plate to change oil.

M

[bjc]

Let me answer a few questions as best I can and then I will find some more pictures to post.

1. Weight. All 3/16" steel construction results in a heavy, but extremely strong product. I'm going to take the plates down after testing them and I will let everyone know the weight of both the front and back plates. I noticed absolutely no performance hit. I got 18 mpg on my trip out (70-85mph, no A/C ) and 18 mpg on my way back with new winch bumper and skids attached. In addition -- and this is probably just in my head -- on the way back, the engine seemed to struggle less in 5th gear at speeds between 75 and 90 when passing (is it downhiil from IN to DC? :confused:)


2. Heat. There is no doubt this is a concern of mine and I've asked f5fstop if he can get me some benchmarks. What I know so far is that if you start up your H3 on a cold morning and drive it a mile and then feel the tranny, or diffs, or exhaust they are hot - damn hot. After I got home from driving 10 hours I spent a few minutes underneath my truck and came to the same subjective conclusion - hot (damn hot). Nothing, of course, was glowing red, and no overt signs of overheating (such as burning smells, etc.). I take some comfort in the fact that I've got a manual transmission and that all the heat from the catalytic converter and much of the exhaust is not enclosed. I will probably have my fluid flushed and checked in about 2-3k miles to get some objective feedback. A tranny temp guage isn't a bad idea but I've never seen one on a manual, and without benchmarks the data isn't terribly helpful. It's clear at this point that the heat issue isn't acute and the real issue is whether temps are being raised moderately to a degree that would breakdown fluid at an accelerated rate over the long run. I think that's probably the case for anyone that does heavy wheeling and can be taken care of with more frequent fluid changes.

3. Mud. Like the heat issue, I can only speculate at this point. One school of thought is that large amounts of mud will get trapped and create more severe heat issues. Another possibility is that the plates will do a better job of keeping mud out and away from the components that really matter. I think it really depends on the terrain. I will report back -- the idea is that it's always easier to drill more holes later if it's a problem.

[bjc]

More pics...

22599

22600

22598

22597

[NEOCON1]

sounds like you got all the bases covered , just keep an eye on that temp :D

[HIHUMMER]

BJC,
How soon do you plan to "test" it? Like others, I'm interested on the results.
Looks damn good to me...(but, then again...I like to break my sh!t!;))

[HummBebe]

She's a sh1t breaker;)

[NEOCON1]

hell you two chicks are our test drivers :D i dont do anything till Bebe goes first ;) :D

[NEOCON1]

She's a sh1t breaker;) Look whos talkin :p

[HIHUMMER]

i dont do anything till Bebe goes first ;) :D

coughpussycough;)

[NEOCON1]

;) it didant help me on the golden stairs did it ? :p :D

[HummBebe]

Nope:D

[NEOCON1]

i still luv you :p :D

[HummBebe]

Yeah, mee too:D

[Sewie]

Holy Jeebus, Pismo is gonna be a lovefest with you two there. :rolleyes: :D

[NEOCON1]

LMAO sewie :D nice sunset pic you got there ;)

[Ipedog]

Awwwww. Thats so sweet and romantic... :) ;) :p

[HummBebe]

Holy Jeebus, Pismo is gonna be a lovefest with you two there. :rolleyes: :D
**whisper**
he's a little jealous:D
he's berry sensitive


I wuv you too Sewie:D:D Sometimes.

[Ipedog]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sewie
Holy Jeebus, Pismo is gonna be a lovefest with you two there.


**whisper**
he's a little jealous
he's berry sensitive


I wuv you too Sewie


You guys need to get a room! ;)



Okay... Enough of the luvy-duvy stuff....

Matt DOI -

For a prototype this looks really good. As for ghetto engineering... I don't think so. I don't know what crush-nut zerts are, but the only thing I saw that really worried me was the exposed, unprotected bolt heads. Perhaps crush-nut zerts take care of that... :confused:

From what I've seen here, yeah, I could be really interested in this. :) :D Please keep us informed.

[CO Hummer]

I saw this skid plate on a picture at my Hummer dealership. Talk about a sweek underbody setup.

http://www.atkinsweb.com/shared/moab2006/47_GS_HighCentered.JPG

[HummBebe]

"sweek"

Is that a combination of sweet/trick???:D

[Connie_Chung]

"sweek"

Is that a combination of sweet/trick???:D
.

[Wisha Haddan H3]

I'm very interested too, so please ignore the haters and keep us informed on this project.

I think making 2 or 3 shorter plates instead of one long piece would help in a lot of ways. By covering separate components, you wouldn't have to remove the whole thing to service the transfer case, tranny, or oil pan. The gaps would allow more ventilation and reduce total weight. Easier installation & removal too. (The 2' x 2' aluminum plates under my Blazer were already a beotch to remove.)

For the oil filter, you could make a hinged door in the front skidplate, like the plate on my old Blazer ZR2. Worked great and a turnscrew latch kept it shut.

[f5fstop]

I'll make the same suggestion I made to BJC. With a full plate installed such as this, at least have the trans fluid flushed about every 25K. No a drain and filter change, but a flush. A drain and filter changes leaves most of the fluid inside the trans and the torque converter; a flush flushes out all old fluid and puts in new fresh fluid.
The other thing I would recommend is a larger trans flud cooler, such as those from BM to keep the fluid temps down.

[youngguns4x4]

He has a manual trans. There is no torque converter and heat wouldn't be as big of a factor to a manual as an auto although heat is still not good.

[bjc]

I'll make the same suggestion I made to BJC. With a full plate installed such as this, at least have the trans fluid flushed about every 25K. No a drain and filter change, but a flush. A drain and filter changes leaves most of the fluid inside the trans and the torque converter; a flush flushes out all old fluid and puts in new fresh fluid.
The other thing I would recommend is a larger trans flud cooler, such as those from BM to keep the fluid temps down.
f5 - I think I understand your advice from an automatic transmission perspective. Torque converter = heat = transmission fluid cooler. But do I have less of an issue with a 5-speed? I thought the manual transmission lacked a fluid cooler (or doesn't need one due to less heat resulting from the absence of a torque converter?). I was also under the impression that more cooling isn't always a better thing with respct to a manual transmission since temperatures that are too low result in poor fluid performance and shifting. What fluid is used in the H3's manual transmission? Is moving to a synthetic based product recommended if one is not already being used?

I could just be confused here, but I would appreciate a clarification.

[Connie_Chung]

I still think you should make the plate out of balsa wood to reduce the weight.

[matt DOI]

I'm very interested too, so please ignore the haters and keep us informed on this project.

I think making 2 or 3 shorter plates instead of one long piece would help in a lot of ways. By covering separate components, you wouldn't have to remove the whole thing to service the transfer case, tranny, or oil pan. The gaps would allow more ventilation and reduce total weight. Easier installation & removal too. (The 2' x 2' aluminum plates under my Blazer were already a beotch to remove.)

For the oil filter, you could make a hinged door in the front skidplate, like the plate on my old Blazer ZR2. Worked great and a turnscrew latch kept it shut.
thanks for the kind words,the skider is 2 parts,one is from the rear A-arm cross member to the last cross member just in frount of the gas tank. the frount goes from the winch mount to both A-arm cross members. to change the oil you have to remove the same numbers of bolts as oem,6.
the next will have more slots and holes,it just hard to do that stuff free hand and still have a good looking part when done. keeping it 2 parts i can keep cost down so more of you can own 1.

[HummBebe]

f5 - I think I understand your advice from an automatic transmission perspective. Torque converter = heat = transmission fluid cooler. But do I have less of an issue with a 5-speed? I thought the manual transmission lacked a fluid cooler (or doesn't need one due to less heat resulting from the absence of a torque converter?). I was also under the impression that more cooling isn't always a better thing with respct to a manual transmission since temperatures that are too low result in poor fluid performance and shifting. What fluid is used in the H3's manual transmission? Is moving to a synthetic based product recommended if one is not already being used?

I could just be confused here, but I would appreciate a clarification.
.
I't already sythetic.

[MarK M]

thanks for the kind words,the skider is 2 parts,one is from the rear A-arm cross member to the last cross member just in frount of the gas tank. the frount goes from the winch mount to both A-arm cross members. to change the oil you have to remove the same numbers of bolts as oem,6.
the next will have more slots and holes,it just hard to do that stuff free hand and still have a good looking part when done. keeping it 2 parts i can keep cost down so more of you can own 1.

sweet... definately keep me posted. i'm interested. BTW, I didnt hear from you on whether i'll need to drill that two additional holes on my wich mount.

thanks,

[matt DOI]

You guys need to get a room! ;)



Okay... Enough of the luvy-duvy stuff....

Matt DOI -

For a prototype this looks really good. As for ghetto engineering... I don't think so. I don't know what crush-nut zerts are, but the only thing I saw that really worried me was the exposed, unprotected bolt heads. Perhaps crush-nut zerts take care of that... :confused:

From what I've seen here, yeah, I could be really interested in this. :) :D Please keep us informed.
the skider is c-bord for flat head cap screws so thay will all be flush mounted. the crush-nut zerts are a nut that when tighten down the fist time thay lock in to the hole. so for a 5/18 18 bolt you would drill a 3/8 hole insert the nut zert and tighten with a bolt,the zert would lock in and you remove the bolt and you have a threaded hole i a pace of steel as thin as .05,its a neat way to hold stuff together,and vary strong. i hope that helps. Matt DeFelice

[f5fstop]

Didn't know you were talking a manual, didn't read the entire thread, but answered your email thinking auto.
The manual uses a manual trans fluid, non-synthetic. The auto trans and transfer case uses Dexron IV and is also non-synthetic. Axles use synthetic fluid.
With a manual, you might be ok using synthetic, never seen anything against its use. For an auto, I don't recommend synthetic; too many people I know who had Vettes had problems with this trans and sythetic fluid. Problem with some synthetic in a trans is that trans fluid is rough. It feels slippery as hell, but it has to aid in friction, so it is finely balanced between being slippery and create friction.
So, I would guess for a manual, just drain and fill every 25K and you should be ok, or switch to a synthetic that can take the heat better.

You are correct, manuals do not increase the heat of the fluid like autos. There are no pressure passages with fluid pushing the countereffect of springs, pressure to apply drums, etc,. and the torque converter which causes a lot of heat.

[HummBebe]

.
I't already sythetic.

I stand corrected.....again:D

[Wisha Haddan H3]

The manual uses a manual trans fluid, non-synthetic.
The manual tranny in the H3 is the AR-5, right? Does it require GM Synchromesh oil? The NV3500 in my old Blazer did, and would not accept synthetic.

[HIHUMMER]

BTT!:D


Any updates?

BJC, Have you wheel w/ it yet??

[Agriv8r]

ok, I'll bite.
In the absence of any answers I have the following comments:

That's gonna weight 100# at least (3/16). Any less thickess and Steve from San Jose might as well use it.


...

ooohhh sh1t, that funny:D :D

[bjc]

I've been out twice now and should get up to Paragon in a couple of weeks. The skid was supposed to be removed this week to get powder coated and reinstalled with recessed bolts -- I was traveling however, and didn't get around to it.

One of my test outings was a couple of weeks ago when all that rain hit the mid-atlantic. I ran muddy trails the morning after we got 7" and forded creeks that had turned into rivers. As for the mud, so far the skid appears to be keeping more out than it's letting in. Despite being buried deep several times, there was no mud caked up underneath the underbody as is usually the case after wheeling on a muddy day. I didn't bother pressure washing underneath afterwards since the only mud caught in the rear skid was a single dirt clod that had entered through one of the drain holes. I just reached in and pulled it out. When I pull the front skid this weekend, I will get a better look at how much mud it collected (or repelled).

I haven't done extensive rock crawling with the skid on so I can't provide a complete review yet. However, I can say that it protected very well while I was fording water. I drove probably 1000 yards upstream in a 2ft creek where it was very difficult to judge where the rocks were underneath the water. I picked a few bad lines and had the truck slip down hard onto the rocks. When I got home, I noticed some nice gashes on the rear skid plate that must have occurred during the trip up the creek. The good news is that the plate didn't bend or dent. When I get a chance to play around at Paragon, I'll see whether the plates can withstand the full weight of the truck when high-centered.

Finally, to address the heat concerns, I've recorded the temps of various components with an infrared gun. The problem is that I have not recorded any data with the skids removed so I really don't have a good baseline yet. Also, my records will reflect a 5-spd and not automatic transmission.

[HIHUMMER]

Thanks BJC. Hopefully I'll be having my similar prototype added next week and then will hit some serious rocks at Tellico. I'll track similar information w/ mine since I have an automatic transmission. If you come across any issues, please let me (us) know. Thanks again!:)