To Turbo or to Supercharge, that is the question.

[Bill G]

Hello to the forum. I bought a 2006 Black Basic H3 with XM Radio back in Oct 06. Have been looking at ways to boost the power a little. I have the forced air mod, and it helped. Researched the turbo mod, but I'm looking for something that is working all the time. There was some chatter that the Turbo may have cooling problems. Looking for anyone's experience with a Turbo or supercharger on the H3. Thanks

Bill / Peyton CO

[f5fstop]

Get a warp drive. Just make sure to beef up the brakes.
Or learn that the "Search function" can be your friend.

[marin8703]

Do both! DO NOW!!! :jump:

check this out http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25658

[Steve - SanJose]

hypothetical question at best:)

[Bill G]

Excellent. So, judging by the comments, I guess no one has experience with either mod on an H3...Bill G

[fourfourto]

You could get one of these.:jump: http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon2.gifhttp://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon2.gifhttp://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon2.gifhttp://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon2.gif


http://cgi.ebay.com/FLUX-CAPACITOR-Awesome-Back-to-the-Future-Prop_W0QQitemZ230115749944QQihZ013QQcategoryZ60361 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[RubHer Yellow Ducky]

The search option is a great thing....

BUT

to cut to the chase

The FUC*ing ENGINE AND DRIVE TRAIN WON'T TAKE THE EXTRA PUNISHMENT of EITHER

OH YEAH

WHAT WARRENTY !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve - SanJose]

It's a way to create an Exploder

[b1ownh3]

I am new to this forum, so hopefully everyone doesn't mind me jumping in. I am a new H3 owner, as I just purchased a 2007 today. I have to say in the 45 miles I have drove it so far, I am quite happy with it. I bought a manual trans, so I'm sure it is a little more "peppy" than an automatic, but I'm used to Mustangs so I'm definetly not happy. Yet!

Ok, so to the point. My company, www.w2wpowertrain.com, has several supercharger kits they are releasing. One happens to be the I5 kit. You can check out the kit on our website. We have been developing the kit for quite some time now, so we are quite happy with it. I just bought the '07 so that we could update our cal for the new 3.7L engine. We also needed a manual so we would have both calibrations. Our kits are different from other companies, like procharger for example. Since we have a full engineering team that is loaded with OEM experiance, we strive to develop our kits so they are of the highest quality.

I'm planning to start installing the kit on my truck this week. I can post pictures and answer any questions if you all want. Again, being new here I don't want to intrude. I also don't want to sound like I'm a commercial. I just want to pass along any info that might help anyone.

Thanks.

[Demo]

I have to say that isn't a bad way to introduce yourself, just don't get a bad attitude when you start getting serious questions, like others have, and you'll be fine.
I am sure there are a ton of h3'ers that want a magic fix for the power issue (me included). Make it happen and you'll get a lot of customers, but you're gonna have to prove it.

Welcome :D

[Demo]

Oh, be sure to PM Jason for vendor info, he will respond fairly quickly, as he always has to my PM's.

[b1ownh3]

Ok, thanks. I just don't want people to think I am only here pushing our product. We work with many other companies and test product all the time. I bought this truck personally, and hope to work on customizing it so I plan to ask others questions on what they have done.

I would also like to extend to anyone that would be in the Detroit area to come and test drive one of our vehicles with our Rotrex supercharger kits on them. I'm sure the boss wouldn't mind. LOL.

I'll post pictures as the week goes on, and get some dyno numbers up when I get them.

[stagger_lee]

Honestly I think some of us might consider it, but we just dont have the need or the balls to do it on our own rig without significant data to back up reliability. My main concern would be the front diff. Maybe if we were able to upgrade to an alpha diff and then add boost, but than again dropping $10K in the rig...we might as well just wait for the V8. I welcome the the info, and thanks for doing the work for us! Welcome to the board! :beerchug:

F5. Do we have forged internals or no? Just pistons?

[b1ownh3]

Is there really that much concern over the durability of the driveline? Has anyone from GM ever been on here and shared their thoughts? I have some contacts within Gm I could talk with and get their opinions. Has anyone had problems with breaking the front diff? I'm just not that familiar with the Hummer line, so I don't mean to sound stupid.

We have had one on a colorado for about a year and have beat the heck out of it. No problems yet.

[HummBebe]

I could share my thoughts, but just search "front diff", and you'll find every concern on the drivetrain.

[stagger_lee]

Is there really that much concern over the durability of the driveline? Has anyone from GM ever been on here and shared their thoughts? I have some contacts within Gm I could talk with and get their opinions. Has anyone had problems with breaking the front diff? I'm just not that familiar with the Hummer line, so I don't mean to sound stupid.

We have had one on a colorado for about a year and have beat the heck out of it. No problems yet.

Did you see those Moab pics? Yeah there are some loons on here pushing the limits, right Bebes? ;) Aluminum housing on diff seems to flex and hits the gears and makes a mess. My argument before in the other thread was adding that torque and HP to an already weak front end, especially on a trail like the Rubicon where there are boulders and twisted chassis, and Moab where there are step ups, could prove to be a disaster a lot sooner then later. I would mind having a little boost in the dunes though! :clapping: I can't wait to read about your set up. :beerchug:

"Has anyone from GM ever been on here and shared their thoughts?"

Fortunately for all of us, yes. We have our resident guru, F5fstop.

[b1ownh3]

Thanks for all the info. One question. I tried to read through quite a bit of the discussions on the front diff issues, and if I'm understanding it right the problems usually occur at real low speed. I'm a newbee to offroading, but it seems like most people broke the diff when they were stopped by an object and tried to ease over it. Most of which appears to be at pretty low RPM. Am I correct in this assumption? If so, a supercharger should really affect this, as you would still not be in boost, therefore not adding any power or torque. Someone correct me if I'm misunderstanding the situation that appears to be causing the failures.

Thanks.

[stagger_lee]

Thanks for all the info. One question. I tried to read through quite a bit of the discussions on the front diff issues, and if I'm understanding it right the problems usually occur at real low speed. I'm a newbee to offroading, but it seems like most people broke the diff when they were stopped by an object and tried to ease over it. Most of which appears to be at pretty low RPM. Am I correct in this assumption? If so, a supercharger should really affect this, as you would still not be in boost, therefore not adding any power or torque. Someone correct me if I'm misunderstanding the situation that appears to be causing the failures.

Thanks.

You are pretty much correct. Although with the 4.1 and 4.56 gears we can run 2-5 mph and be at 15-2200 Rpms and we would definately be boosting there, right? Thus adding torque to wheels and stress on diff. Does that sound right? I am not familiar how this supercharger works. I assume its belt driven and boosts all the way through the power band. Where does it hit max boost and what is it boosting at, 10 PSI max? I can only attest to muscle cars, but my pops has a blown Dart. My thoughts were this, and the difference in throttle response is night and day now we are blown. Now it is very jumpy, and when rockcrawling we dont want jumpy. We want it to be smooth and slow. Jumpy causes axle hop and breakage. I am simply speculating at this point because I have not been rockcrawling in a rig that was supercharged, just taking my knowledge of both and applying it. :beerchug:

[b1ownh3]

Ok. Step one has just been completed. We have baselined the 2007 manual trans H3. I have attached the dyno sheet. Little depressing, but we have a long ways to go. This is in all time 4 wheel drive, so it is at all the tires. We have an all wheel drive chassis dyno.

[stagger_lee]

At least we have nice even torque distribution through the power curve. :giggling: Not too impressive though. Thats why we have big gears, offset tthe lack of power. :beerchug:

[ChevyHighPerformance]

Not bad. The weight on the dyno sheet should be closer to 5000 lb. This shows the drivetrain efficiency to be about 72%. You can see the two humps in the torque curve from the VVT. Keep dynoing in 3rd. You should see better numbers in 4th gear but you'll hit the speed limiter with the stock programming.

[wpage]

Too bad GM wont do some of this homework:beerchug:

[stagger_lee]

Maybe they did and didnt share. :twak: I cant wait to see the outcome of this whole thing. It just might prove to be a worth while power upgrade for us, if done right and tested significantly. :dancingbanana:

[b1ownh3]

Most people relate supercharger output to that of a roots style (like a magnuson or a Roush). The supercharger we use is a centrifugal style (similar to a procharger). With a roots style, you tend to make high levels of boost down low, which make for great low-end torque. However, they usually run out of air at higher RPM's and fall off. With the centrifugal style, you don't usually make boost till about 2500 rpm (depends on engine rpm and max boost) so they usually make better power up top. Now if you are concerned about over-loading the driveline at low rpm (15-2200), I don't see any added stress from this perticular supercharger. We have a system on a 2006 H3 development vehicle that we have been driving around. It has pretty much only been driven on the road, so I can't give any feedback to how it does in the crazy situations some of you are looking to put one through :). I have a dyno sheet on it, but it didn't print very clear so it doesn't show up when I try to scan it. Here is a summary:

Max Power - 242hp @ 5800 rpm
Max torque - 226 ft-lbs from about 3200-5000 rpm
Max boost - 7.78

These numbers are pretty conservative for a stock engine. Of course you can push the boost for more power, but at some point I would worry about the pistons. I'm going to contact some of my guys at GM, as I know they have pushed this engine with both turbos and superchargers until they broke. I'm curious as to at what level they broke, and where they broke (pretty sure it would be the pistons). As I get info I will pass it along.

[HummBebe]

Okie Dokie.....

all time 4 wheel drive. Lets clarify :D

It's "full time 4 wheel drive"

In 4 high mode the drive train is split 40% front, 60% rear.

In 4 high lock the drive train is split 50-50

In 4 Low lock, again 50-50

When you are in 4 low, (as I was going up the golden stairs :p ) trying to crawl an uphill obstacle, brake throttle modulation, I was at about 22-2500 rpms before the truck would even move. Thanks to the 4:1 transfer case and the 4.56's.

You are correct in saying that this is done at slow speeds. It is housing flex that causes the failure. However, prop shafts and diveshafts along with carrier brackets have failed as well.

Now a question for you.....do you or are you in possession of a 4WD dyno??

This could be cool:excited:

[HummBebe]

PS, those numbers look like the 3.7 not the 3.5. Yes?

[HummBebe]

Ok, thanks. I just don't want people to think I am only here pushing our product. We work with many other companies and test product all the time. I bought this truck personally, and hope to work on customizing it so I plan to ask others questions on what they have done.

I would also like to extend to anyone that would be in the Detroit area to come and test drive one of our vehicles with our Rotrex supercharger kits on them. I'm sure the boss wouldn't mind. LOL.

I'll post pictures as the week goes on, and get some dyno numbers up when I get them.

For now we'll consider it R&D :)

[b1ownh3]

Yeah, I knew it would only be a matter of time before I miss-spoke something. Sorry for using the wrong terminology. You explained it all just like the Hummer dealer. I guess I wasn't paying enough attention. I just wanted to drive it.

Hopefully I'll have better dyno graphs I can post next week so you can see what engine speeds the torque increases, and how much. The graph I have of the 3.5 engine has time across the bottom....not RPM. Hard to read it. Maybe I can get a better graph made up tomorrow and post it.

You are correct, the graph I posted is my '07, which is the 3.7.

[stagger_lee]

Bebes.

Ok. Step one has just been completed. We have baselined the 2007 manual trans H3. I have attached the dyno sheet. Little depressing, but we have a long ways to go. This is in all time 4 wheel drive, so it is at all the tires. We have an all wheel drive chassis dyno.

Dont you think a supercharger would be a nice addition to your rig?:beerchug:

[HummBebe]

I can't afford 2, and teh Pony gets hers first :jump:

[deserth3]

On your technical specs it mentions a flat spot on the unit must be installed down and within +or- 15 deg from horizontal. I assume this is for oil flow and cooling.
When offroading it is possible that the vehicle will be more than 15 degrees off horizontal. What is the potential for supercharger failure?
How long will it last in this condition?
If it does fail would it be considered an out of warenty failure?

[HummBebe]

Great questions.....:perfect10s:

[fourfourto]

I can't afford 2, and teh Pony gets hers first :jump:


:iagree: How much power you going to get on the 3.(and how many front differentials will you have to replace.:giggling: )
The stang will kick a$$ with a supercharger http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon2.gifhttp://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Bebe how come there are no pics or videos of the stang.
Lets see some holeshots ,flatspins and donuts
:jump:

Ill post some of the 442 soon.

[Steve - SanJose]

What about that 'stang? Details/pics maybe.

[evldave]

On your technical specs it mentions a flat spot on the unit must be installed down and within +or- 15 deg from horizontal. I assume this is for oil flow and cooling.
When offroading it is possible that the vehicle will be more than 15 degrees off horizontal. What is the potential for supercharger failure?
How long will it last in this condition?
If it does fail would it be considered an out of warenty failure?

c'mon no one actually gets their H3 more than 15 degrees from horizontal! Hummer uses a special oil pickup on the I-5 as a poser mod, not one that's actually needed. I just measured and I only get 3-4 degrees going over curbs - that's the worst offroading I'd ever want to subject my H3 to in real-life situations.

[HummBebe]

Spends most of her time in the garage. The H3 has 48K, the pony 8K, bought them within about 2 weeks of eachother.

I'll see if I can find some pics.


Edit: Found one :D

[HummBebe]

Her upgrades so far, Magnaflow exhaust, superchip w/CAI (brought the HP to 350), lowered, and some other cosmetic stuff.

[b1ownh3]

The 15 degrees is the static mounting requirement. We posed the question to them a while back when we started working on a Jeep kit. They told us they see no issue with short term driving at steep angles. I'm sure once the pump is primed there won't be any issues. Now if the vehicle was parked at a 60% grade for hours then started up and driven on that grade I could see some issues. But I would be concerned with the engine having a problem with that also.

Since we are in the process of developing a Jeep kit, I am going to try and push to do some gradability testing of the Rotrex unit. We have specs for many of the OEM's, so we could use that as a start. I'm sure as we get into more and more off-road vehicles this question will come up.

As for power potential of the '07 H3, I'm not sure yet. We usually see over 50% increase in power. The base power was 175, so I would hope for at least 275....at the wheels.

[b1ownh3]

Hey Bebe, have you seen the glass back roof for the new stangs? We have one in a development vehicle. They are made by classic design concepts. They are SWEET! Heres the link....http://www.glassbackroof.com/

[HummBebe]

Too Cool !! Mee likes!

I'm still looking for a new hood too. So many choices it is hard to make a decision. I really need to go to a show and see them all.

[Steve - SanJose]

Love the Mustang. :D

Garage queen like my Porsche 986S. I have 36K miles on the H3 and 6K miles on the Porsche.