Here is some comparison when I got bored at school in the winter. This is me with a stock suspention. It doesn't show my full articulation. The top of the tire was about 12 inches from the fender. and still had more room to go.

1995 Land Rover Discovery, with light envy
2003 Acura 3.2TL
1998 Volvo V70 XC

this is the picture that was supposed to go in there.

1995 Land Rover Discovery, with light envy
2003 Acura 3.2TL
1998 Volvo V70 XC

Chris, I guess I need to start digging up the worst possible pictures of your boney-tired "perfect" off-roading vehicle too now.

You are right in many ways. But good driving can prevent much of what you show in a worst example of the H2.

As for your comments on the Boxter. Yes, the Boxter bailed out Porsche in a big way. But any time you take a reputable company and launch a cheap product for those who can't afford their high-end namesake vehicle, you have a sales hit. I guess I see this the same as the Range Rover and the Disco.....

The Porsche Boxter is a throw-away car so Porsche can keep the cash flow to make their real performance machines.

1995 Land Rover Discovery, with light envy
2003 Acura 3.2TL
1998 Volvo V70 XC

Hey Chris!

Rovers even look WEAK!

Check out the OkC Chapter Page!

I am done poking each other in the eye.

I am leaving with the understanding we have large differences in opinions. Good to have you on the Forum.

Have a great Fourth of July.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RasterMaster:
Hey Chris!

Rovers even look WEAK!

Check out the OkC Chapter Page!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I KNOW!

1995 Land Rover Discovery, with light envy
2003 Acura 3.2TL
1998 Volvo V70 XC

Hey...I'm VERY happy that Chris in on the forum. While we may discuss and argue merits of various vehicles...he's still our buddy, and much like Mike....is very welcome here..and appreciated!

With that said...Chris, you're a fu&#^ing blindass moron!!! What the hell are you.....just kidding.

I think the pic of the H2 you show is rather peculiar. The front left wheel is under extreme compression and has the sway bar pulling up very strong on the right wheel. The rear doesn't look too impressive, but you have to remember there already exist a large gap between between the wheel & well.

Still, the H2 articulates significantly more then the H1. Trust me...it does very well offroad and one thing is very consistent: it continually surprises MANY people how well it actually does.

Chris...do you really believe/think the cayenne can compete against a Disco????? Seriosly?

SteveR,

Chris knows I like to rib him about the Rovers! Besides being a fellow Hoosier, he has become the new Chat moderator!

Check out the OkC Chapter Page!

Oh yeah....Chris is a swell guy. He's also very very active over on the gay-pride forum as well. I mean...well....with his Disco and all.

Thanks you steve, but you forgot to comment on the awesome articulation I had going there. I will see how it does, but from what I have seen it looks pretty cool. I will just wait to see how it does perform.

1995 Land Rover Discovery, with light envy
2003 Acura 3.2TL
1998 Volvo V70 XC

Steve I do kinda fancy the miata and the VW beetle...joking

1995 Land Rover Discovery, with light envy
2003 Acura 3.2TL
1998 Volvo V70 XC

[This message was edited by Chris on 07-04-03 at 12:42 PM.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by H2Norcal:
I guess I see this the same as the Range Rover and the Disco.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The disco wasn't cheap or anything like that. You are thinking of the freelander.

1995 Land Rover Discovery, with light envy
2003 Acura 3.2TL
1998 Volvo V70 XC

So the picture wasn't impressive, agreed. That is about as much clearance you can get on the H2 before you have tire lift. Moments after that shot the tire was off the ground and I was teetering.

I know the Disco isn't cheap but it is far lower-end than the Range....I see the H2 being the Range-class and the H3 being the Disco when it is all said and done.

What kind of silly question is this? Why would anyone be torn between a HUMMER and a minivan?

Chris,

That pic is unfair...that front tire would have to drop 16" to touch the ground and the rear would have to be sucked upto the roof-racks!

Ya know...Alec W. went wheeling with Brianfriend recently. He said Brians rig had it's tires up in the air all over the place: that thing looked like a dog marking its territory on a street with LOTS of trees!

Not my words, may or may not be my views.

AutoWeek. 7/7/03.
WOW! THERE’S NO SAGEBRUSH GROWING under the tires of Porsche’s new off-road vehicle, Cayenne, as AutoWeek subscribers gave it top honors. Should it come as any surprise, really, considering the way you feel about the 911? You obviously have discerning taste: Porsche’s Cayenne beat last year’s winner, the Land Rover Range Rover, as well as the BMW X5, the new Hummer H2 and the Volvo XC90—none of which are shabby trucks.

Cayenne gives Porsche dealers a truck Porsche owners can park next to their cars; according to Porsche’s research, half of its sports car owners already own sport/utes. Two Cayenne models are available: the S and the Turbo. Both are powered by 4.5-liter V8s, but the Turbo produces a whopping 450 hp. With horsepower comes speed, as the Turbo model is way fast and way at the top of the truck price food chain at $90,000. Cayenne definitely puts the “sport” in sport/utility.

(08:30 July 07, 2003) 2003 Porsche Cayenne Turbo. By THE EDITORS OF AUTOWEEK

DATE IN FLEET: June 12-19 AS-TESTED PRICE: $94,130
POWERTRAIN: 4.5-liter twin-turbo V8; 4wd, six-speed automatic HP: 450 @ 6000 rpm TORQUE: 457 @ 2250-4750 rpm. CURB WEIGHT: 5192 pounds

WILSON: I know I should like this. It works, it’s bloody fast, and I’m way past my beef that “Porsche shouldn’t build an SUV.” I mean, yes, Porsche doesn’t need an answer to Lexus or Range Rover or even BMW—Porsches are what they are. But it does need a volume-generator to help dealers survive and upgrade their operations, because, as we’ve seen in several long-term experiences, much of the dealer network lacks luster. So, okay, I’ll give it to ’em.

Not a Porsche? Well, what the heck would it be, then? It’s not a VW. This sucker goes like blazes, and you can even stop it from speed without too much drama (maybe no drama—everything in your experience says “This is gonna be bad” so your pulse rate goes up, then the Cayenne just stops... not quite like a Turbo or even a Boxster, but a whole lot better than anything this big should do). It grips in a turn as much as I’m willing to risk in a thing that feels this tall. It doesn’t lean significantly, it goes where you point it, you can drive it on the throttle. It’s a big, tall front-engine Porsche (maybe people who don’t remember previous front-engine Porsches won’t make the connection).

However... no sale. This is too heavy, too tall and just plain too un-fun for my tastes. Yeah, I know, it’s my old “Why am I sitting up here and why’s it weigh this much” complaint about all SUVs. I put the suspension on its lowest setting, I turned off the PSM (intrusive bugger that it is) and went for a quick drive around the lake. It performed well, but I wasn’t happy afterward—it wasn’t something I’d choose to do for kicks. The Cayenne doesn’t have the lithe handling or nice steering you find in the X5 (another vehicle I know I should like but don’t much). It might make better numbers, but it doesn’t feel better, and driving fun is all about feel, not just numbers. All the controls feel heavy, like this was a 928 that has been eating Double Whoppers with cheese at Burger King for the past 20 years. That was a “man’s car” in the vernacular of the day and this one has that same hefty feel about it.

Of the X5, I once wrote that you can teach a pig to dance, but when you’re done, you find yourself dancing with a pig. Substitute hippo for pig and you’ve got my take on driving this. Besides which, I really dislike the way it looks. Those commercials with the people doing outrageous things to get a look at it are ridiculous—no one is going to look at this and exclaim “Jeepers H. Christmas, that’s the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen.” It ain’t as ugly as an Element or Aztek, granted, but Mrs. Wilson gets credit for describing it: “It looks like it’s out of proPorsche...” Bottom line: I won’t complain about Porsche making an SUV anymore so long as no one makes me drive it again. Deal?

MANDEL: I believe we need to burn some incense around here. Think positive thoughts. Put your subconscious in a happy place and expand your mind. Now: Is there room to place emphasis on the sport portion of the sport/ute equation? (Let us please not debate the worthiness or value of such vehicles. They are here to stay, so just suck it up.) And if you agree said “sport” influence is a valued modifier, which company is better to inculcate sport in trucks than Porsche? I do not mind “high-effort” switchgear; it should be higher effort than that in the Boxster, because in so doing it imparts the notion of ruggedness.

Will this 5200-pound truck make it off-road? Only when it has to turn around on the polo fields of Palm Beach... The performance in the turbo Cayenne is pretty spectacular, as it should be. This kind of acceleration and cornering capabilities belie its girth. This is more nimble than even expected. And at $94,000, is it not at the pinnacle of truckdom? You bet.

Forget for a moment that this vehicle, derided by purist enthusiasts and Porschephiles, goes outside the lines of what is and is not a pure Porsche. That it has added sales in a weakened economy, that it has given the company independence through size, that it has redefined and solidified a niche, are all paramount to it and the industry.

Do I like it? Yes. Would I buy this? If I were one of the 60 percent of Porsche owners who have a sport/ute in my garage anyway and could afford it, absolutely. Would I carry anything in it other than people and golf clubs? No way.

Uh....back to the articulation thing: Articulate this Christoph!

front left wheel up about 20", front right on the ground...the rear is doing the opposite. It's no rock-crawler, but it's no rigid-board either!

Alright I am going to the cayenne driving experence in chicago in august. I will tell you all how it does from my experence there.

yeah....I bet they'll have a course laid-out that suits the Cayenne just perfectly: as steep an approach as it can handle, as big a rock it can drive over and as steep a side-slope as it can handle.

I'm seeing these things all over town: it's a glorified station-wagon with a big engine. About the only thing is has going for it is the 4x4 system.

Well of course they would, but i think it will be fun. Hell you get a free lunch, how could you argue against that!!!

How can you argue against a free lunch????

in one word: MAC

You know it really doesn't matter how well the Cayenne is received.

Steve is right (again), it really is a glorified upper class minivan for the gated community types to say they have a Porsche SUV. It really has nothing to do with off-roading. I mean please, can you imagine running into a Cayenne 15 miles out in the wilderness winching out of a rut.

Uh, wait a minute, I can. Hum, I am seeing something here, it is a man and a woman. He is dressed in Gucci loafers and slacks and she is in a silk dress, they have a picnic lunch (with grey poupon of course) and wait, there's more....um I see two AAA towing guys towing their Cayenne out while the couple sits on their checkboard blanket.... Yeah, this Cayenne could be an off-road vehicle by golly.

HAHA!!!! I tink there was a guy on gay...i mean discoweb who bought one and was gonna try it out to see how it worked. Let me see if i can find that and i will ask him about it.

Hey guys....come on...

Let's put a clean perspective on this. The Cayenne obviously has a great 4x4 system...all four tires turning with some form of traction control and perhaps even some locker action....so we know is has the go-forward thing down solid. I'm sure it even has a 4-low as well and a few other swift gadgets.

The other aspect to being a capable offroad vehicle comes from clearance and the general lay-out of the design. The approach/departure angle is hardly there and the clearance isn't all that spectacular. Remember that Arrowhead video I made....well....I sincerely doubt it would make it up that very first hill....especially with those tires!

Now...jack it up a few inches and put on some large-wide all-terrains...now you've got something!!!!

As has been said: Porsche realized that a HUGE amount of their owners already have SUV's in the garage, so IF they make an SUV....their loyal customers would buy them.

It's almost as if they used their great name and reputation and cashed in on it....

What a novel concept!!!!!!!!!!

Tell ya what I'm gonna do: tomorrow I'll call a few local Porsche dealers and invite any of their customers to join our club!

But let's not forget, the Cayenne is probably going to be a higher rated vehicle then the H2: it's MUCH easier to get into and out of, is faster, better handling, better mpg, parks easier and has less 'blind-spots'. I bet it's very luxurious and is built to exacting standards too.

God Bless America and our freedom choice, let's embrace the Cayenne as yet another vehicle to join us on the roads.

Save the negative energy for those rancid Disco's!!!

kidding we love ya Chris....even if you're planning on getting a D90.

Yes that d90 is rancid, even more so then the disco! Steve went wheeling today and got some pics. Jason said it was alright so i will post them tonight...maybe...

Steve I might get an h2 but they are just damn expensive for me. an 18 year old DOES NOT need at $50k car! No matter what!

Alec what car was that? And Steve look down a bit for my pictures... http://www.elcova.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=2826088551&f=1236038291&m=234606466 3&r=2316065663#2316065663

I received a mailing from local Porsche dealer, giving $4K off the Cayenne S. I guess there is no waiting list for Cayenne. I wonder why it is not doing so well as Hummer or other SUVs. It is priced almost exactly same as H2, which is a cheap price for a Porsche, smaller and it is a Porsche, you would think it should be more acceptable to most buyers.

We just bought a Cayenne (traded in the P.O.S. Jag). I will never give up my Hummer, but the Cayenne does handle very well on the highway. It is quick and fun to drive. I drive the both, and there is no comparison. They handle differently, drive differently, and the feel completely different.

Diane, sounds like a good choice.
Next year, we will sell the perfect Jaguar XJVP sedan and Cayenne is on my very short list of replacement: Porsche Cayenne, MB S500 or new BMW7. Can't think of anything else now. What were on your list of replacement consideration?

MAC from what I have heard and seen they are selling very well. My dealer can't keep them on the lot. I see them around a lot, not as much as the H2, but I see at least 5 a day. And also when looking at a new car, go check out the Audi A8L, very nice vehicle, better then the benz or BMW, IMHO. But then I don't see why you would get rid of your VP, great car, in fact we are getting one next year, in British Racing Green .

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"

My Audi was a total POS, every inch of it, 3 repairs a week, different things; and it has "VW" logo on parts everywhere. Many friends who owned Audis had same experience, never admitted it until they sold the cars; in reports I read, Audi themselves admitted that. Beautiful cars with excellent handling, it tried and tries but it will never be on the same level as MB, BMW or Porsche. I heard people say Audi owners are people who can't afford a MB/BMW/Porsche, may not be true, but why even bother with Audi if you can buy a MB/BMW/Porsche? I promised myself I'll never ever buy an Audi again, period.

Stay away from 95 Jag XJ, not that it has problem, but 96 2nd yr model had major changes, 75% thicker and quieter glass, 4.5" extra rear leg room, 2" extra rear head room (done due to John Major's complaint), and many other major structure changes. Ours is absolutely elegant, perfect and reliable, but simply got tired of driving it after many years.

I do see many Cayennes everywhere, no matter, a Porsche is a Porsche and it will always be a Porsche. But you don't give $4K off MSRP few months out of gate and without people asking for it, you only do it because you have to and you are worried.

We will be getting a 05 XJVP, I love that car, its so beautiful. My dad is in the same boat, he does not want to buy my mom an Audi (it is his 30 year anniversary (sp?) gift to her) because of what he has heard, I believe that audi is much better then it used to be in the past, from what i have heard from people.

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"

MAC, our Jag was far from perfect. It went into a fail safe mode on I95 while traveling at 80 mph. Our speed instantly dropped to 45 mph and we were almost killed by a truck. We immediately took it to the Jag dealer (it was under warranty, only 36k miles) and were told that Jaguar would not pay to fix it because the computer readout did not show the exact problem. Needless to say we were beyond angry. We subsequently told them where they could put the Jag and went next door to the Porsche dealer and bought the Cayenne. We had actually considered a 2004 Jag until this happened.
My husband raced Porsches (prior to the children) and I know he has been dying to buy a new one. The children make a sports car out of the question so the Cayenne was next. After reading all of the negative comments, we were pleasantly surprised with the car.

Diane, What happened to your Jaguar maybe was caused by a chip which was in a smog/cat converter recall, happened to me too on the freeway, but the dealer took care of that N/C.

Chris, the unwritten marketing line for Audi in Germany/Europe for decades has been "a poorman's Benz." I heard that from my Dutch and German friends and counterparts who own Audis, and I read it in auto magazines. There is no shame in that, in fact Audi used that to the max to sell Audis in Europe, and it is their basic marketing strategy. In a lengthy BusinessWeek interview with Dr. Piech, owner and grandson of Dr. Porsche, one time boss at Porsche, one time boss at Audi who was credited with saving Audi from death and started all these new models, later chairman of VW, now chairman of VW supervisory board(which is the real boss in German corporations), he himself acknowledged the quality problems at VW and Audi, and tried to change that. New ones could be better, but I won't bet my money on it. There are other choices, I may not be a rich man, but I certainly don't want to be a "poorman".

Thanks for the info Mac. No one ever notified us about a recall. The Jag dealer certainly didn't.

Diane, first of all, I don't know if that was true in your case, secondly that info is useless to you now. The dealer makes whole world of difference, doesn't it? If the dealer is nice, I'd forgive them for almost everything, if not that brand loses its shine. I took the Jag to a nearby independent shop I known for years, but they could not fix the Jaguar after several tries in several weeks, finally I took it to the Jaguar dealer 20 miles away thinking this must be a $2000 repair bill, I usually can guess the worst case repair bills. But the nice professional told me the truth about this old recall which I filed away and never took care. It was free. He knew I didn't know, he could've charged me $1000 and I'd thought it was my lucky day. Honest man and honest Jaguar Redwood city dealership. This was my fault by not taking care the recall.

I saw a white Cayenne a few minutes ago when I went out to pick up my 14 yr old son. Nice white color, seems better looking than the blue and charcoal I've seen many times. Cayenne is good choice.