Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Yep, as lung as wares "secure" lettem dew wut they wunt!

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Don't argue with me. Take it to the founding fathers. ;)

A lot of what they established is totally lost. But heck, we have a Starbucks on every corner so it can't be that bad, right?

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

And dont forget the illegal mexicants on every corner we really need them too.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Reminds of a chat a had with a guy in the airline industry while at DFW. He was in town to give a lecture. The theme of his lecture was the myth of airline security. He went into details about a test they ran where they tried to smuggling illegal objects past the TSA.

Attempts: 21
Successfully Smuggled in: 21.

Nice. But hey, at least we're "secure"!

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

I hate Starbucks because of their gun control contributions. We need to start a new chain of NRA cafes.;)

In case it's at issue, to justify the WWII comparison, one thing that is important to me is that, in WWII, our enemies were pretty much out in the open. Our intellegence efforts were important and, greatfully, effective, but we were basically fighting our enemies' carriers, battleships, and the thousands of tanks and aircraft their millions of troops fielded against us. Our current enemies have little or no power without the benefit of remaining hidden. They cannot possibly hope to harm us in the open. We win, if at all, by uncovering them. That's why our efforts to uncover them is more imprtant now than in any conflict we have ever faced.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

I agree Ben. You should tell this to Marinehawk!

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

I agree. I just don't think that our government's excess in that situation translates to all others.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

AHOY Cafe?

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!:jump:

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

I agree too Ben. As I suggested in my comments about the Saudis, I just think of essential liberties as things like the ability to, as we are doing here, criticize our government and also things like the protections against unreasonable searches; the ability to practice or criticize whatever religion we want; due process; etc ... I just don't think Ben was characterizing the right to not have your credit report looked at as an "Essential Liberty." I'm pretty sure he was talking about serious infringements on essential rights. I imagine Ben would not go for general martial law and suspension of the 1st and 4th amendments to fight this war. I doubt he'd care if someone looked as his or anyone's credit history.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

I agree with you. I'm not convinced that protection of credit information is an essential liberty.

HOWEVER........

All would, on paper, agree that we should not give up "essential liberties". But I think bparker's idea here is that no one asks the question about what an "essential liberty" is. The government is given unquestioned trust and a blank checkbook to do whatever it wants. All you have to do is whisper "in the interest of national security" and everyone is expected to shut their mouth and accept whatever they do.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

"This Court has gone far toward accepting the doctrine that civil liberty means the removal of all restraints from these crowds and that all local attempts to maintain order are impairments of the liberty of the citizen. The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the Court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson - Terminiello v. Chicago, 1949.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

I understand your thinking. Maybe some of that is going on. I think we just see things from different perspectives. You seem to see more unreasonable accepting than complaining. I see more unreasonable complaining than accepting. I guess the truth may be subjective on that one.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

So......is the government taking away your liberties or are the terrorists?

When we fought the Nazis, the Japanese- hell way back, even the Mongols had a way of identifying themselves. This is new times. We are fighting a "predator" that blends in. Cowards. Virus. We have to put a little antibiotics in our blood. BFD.

This isn't going to end anytime soon. Religous wars have been fought for centuries.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Why do these have to be mutally exclusive? My answer would be "BOTH".

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Yes, however the government's is reactive to the terrorism.

Let's again ask this question. Financial data mining has been proven effective in the UK and (if the NY Times doesn't spill it first) most likely helping our Homeland security track specific cells.

What are the alternatives to tracking and or 'spying' on these potential threats? More men/tax moneys? Armed watchmen? Cameras? Liberties will be taken regardless.

Do we wait for something to happen?

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Part of my perspective comes from lack of cynicism on this issue and my belief that I have seen nothing to indicate that the government is looking at things like credit histories for anything other than the stated purpose - to get the bad guys. I have seen nothing to indicate that some kind of McCarthyistic abuse is going on here. If I saw anything to indicate that Condaleeza was looking at CO Hummer's credit histories to see what type of Armenian porn was on his computer, then I would be pissed - just like I was at the brief disarming of the New Orleans citizens. I just haven't seen it. I won't give up my right to: carry a gun; to attend church; to criticize Hillary Clinton; to have big tires; to be able to write my thoughts freely on Elcova; to not have police coming into my home without cause; etc... No one has aksed me to give those things up. I have seen no reasonable suggestion that the police are looking at my credit history so that they can screw with me. If they need to have access to my credit history so that they can also have access to the bad guys', I'm all for it.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

I'm not arguing that data mining is wrong. I haven't given it a lot of thought so I'm not convicted either way.

But the logic in your arguement says that "if it helps convict terrorists, then it's ok".. That is a dangerous, pragmatic argument. If you push that logic to is conclusion - anything is justified as long as it gets results. You know where that can go. That's the point here.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Well said.

The question to those who feel that essential liberties have been taken away. What exactly has been taken from you? How is your life different from before these provisions?

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

But the point is - that's YOUR position. Because you don't have a problem with it - neither should anyone else, right? Hello, socialist! Just get 51% of the people to agree with you and make it so!

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Man I love this logic: "If I haven't seen bad things happen, then they must not be happening".


I'm assumming you don't get daily personal briefings from the intelligence committee, NSA, CIA, FBI, Homeland security, KenP, etc.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Yes. But you can't conversely say that, because a few people dislike what most (including the S. Ct.) consider appropriate measures to stop terrorism, that they should not be implemented.

Another thinng that increases my comfort here is that there are numerous people from the opposition party in the DHS (a fairly high-level one lives across the street from me). These people tend to leak everything that even remotely casts a shadow on the Bush administration. If they were implementing anti-terror measures as a pretext to go after your Armenian porn (deny it if you will ;) ), Pelosi would be making a prime-time speech about it tonight. Hopefully, they would conceal your identity to protect the innocent. We really do have pretty good checks against that type of thing IMO.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

This is a clear example of opposing perspectives. I think we would say the flawed logic is that "If I haven't seen bad things happen, then they must ... be happening." With no trace of any evidence of abuse, I can't get worried.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

OK, help me out on this. You are a Marine, right? Isn't one of the fundamentals that you be prepared for the possibility of "bad things" happening even if you hadn't seen them happen?

That's EXACTLY what the founding fathers did when they created safeguards.

For you to say "With no trace of any evidence of abuse, I can't get worried." is unexpected.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

I think a lot of this boils down to our beliefs on (1) certain presumptions and (2) the impact in context of the questioned policies.

(1) You seem to believe that, if the government is in a position to do harm, harm is done. I can't say that you are wrong; only that I disagree. I think that the government will invariiably be in a position to do harm to us all. I only have a problem when they actually do harm. For example, I do not think they should disband the National Guard just because, if an improper order is issued, they might destroy my house and kill my family with a dozen 155 mm artillery rounds. Yet, if they start employing artillery barages against our citizenry's households, I'd express some serious concerns.

(2) I just don't think the Founding Fathers issued safeguards against the government scrutinizing information like our credit histories, which are I think fairly public anyway, especially in wartime. It's just not like quartering soldiers in time of peace in violation of Amendment III to me.

I seriously would be very displeased if the government went over the line. I just haven't seen it, and I'm not going to assume that they are without any single fact (which, see above, I think would come to light if true) in support of this. On the contrary, to me, the gov't seems to be doing a remarkably difficult job of protecting us against attacks.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

HEY!! I don't share all my info with everyone. Outline of todays' briefing:

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

OMG!!!! There's blood in my booger!

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

roflmfao see I told ya... :giggling:

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

FWIW, against the cliche, I do consider myself a former Marine - partly because I don't think it's fair to imply that I am still in the same class with the active duty heroes doing the difficult stuff now.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

The basis of a democratic state is liberty; which, according to the common opinion of men, can only be enjoyed in such a state; this they affirm to be the great end of every democracy. One principle of liberty is for all to rule and be ruled in turn, and indeed democratic justice is the application of numerical not proportionate equality; whence it follows that the majority must be supreme, and that whatever the majority approve must be the end and the just. Every citizen, it is said, must have equality, and therefore in a democracy the poor have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme. This, then, is one note of liberty which all democrats affirm to be the principle of their state. Another is that a man should live as he likes. This, they say, is the privilege of a freeman, since, on the other hand, not to live as a man likes is the mark of a slave. This is the second characteristic of democracy, whence has arisen the claim of men to be ruled by none, if possible, or, if this is impossible, to rule and be ruled in turns; and so it contributes to the freedom based upon equality.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

You sound very Greek today.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Kenny, I'm impressed at the expansion of your vocabulary. Or... did you mean to type "whelp". :D

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Well, I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night. OH, oh, I also had a Greek salad the other day.:jump:

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

I remember Steve-SanJose saying the same thing. :giggling: :giggling:

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Shhhh, you make me wince.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Sorry about that. I don't mean to be rude, whenceforth I should offend you.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Θεωρούμε ότι το Πανεπιστήμιο δεν είναι αγωγός που οδηγεί αυτόματα στην απόκτηση του πτυχίου, με την απομνημόνευση ετοιμοπαράδοτων γνώσεων, και ότι δεν πρέπει να ανέχεται την πνευματική τυποποίηση!!!!!!!!!!

Είναι χώρος ελεύθερης διακίνησης ιδεών, που καλλιεργεί την επιστημονική πολυφωνία, και την ανάπτυξη κριτικής και αναλυτικής σκέψης, μέσα από συνεχή σχεδιασμό και δυναμική προσπάθεια. Η γνώση κατακτάται με πληρότητα όταν την αναζητεί κανείς, και όχι όταν του την επιβάλλουν.
Οι αρχές αυτές προσδιορίζουν και την έννοια του Ακαδημαϊκού ασύλου, το οποίο έχει υποστεί στην πράξη πάμπολλες στρεβλώσεις, μία από τις οποίες είναι η ταύτισή του με την άσκηση βίας. Ακαδημαϊκό άσυλο και βία είναι εξ ορισμού έννοιες αντιφατικές. Αλίμονο εάν σε μια δημοκρατία απαιτείται βία για να βιωθεί το ακαδημαϊκό άσυλο. Το άσυλο βρίσκεται στο πνεύμα μας, στην κριτική προσέγγιση, στην ελευθερία του σκέπτεσθαι, στην αναθεώρηση των γνώσεών μας, στην υπεράσπιση των δικαιωμάτων μας, αλλά εξίσου στο σεβασμό του δικαιώματος των άλλων, στη συνθετική επίλυση προβλημάτων, στην αμφισβήτηση. Με έναν λόγο: στην αγάπη για το μυαλό του άλλου. Το άσυλο είναι το πνεύμα μας και η ελευθερία του, η οποία όμως πρέπει να υποκλίνεται πρώτα στο πνεύμα και στην ελευθερία του άλλου.

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Gawd, you guys are serious dorks sometimes.:beerchug:

Yes, we should ask questions. As we did when this subject came in debate 5 or 6 years ago. When something like this passes, I think about it and if I have questions- look further into it. I really put myself in the position of someone working for the sake of our saftey, think of what tools they may need and giving them them those tools. I try to look at the system as a friend and what we our doing together as a country not what the government is doing to or taking away from me.

Our founding fathers put the fundamentals of our government structures down as well as laws and our liberties. I am confident that when something like this has passed it has been thoroughly thought through. (say that 3 times fast.:D) It's hard to imagine that there is some conspiracy among the many elected with so many different viewpoints just passing something with the intention to fuk us over. But yes, as some of you said it's good to question- just don't be a paranoid retard.:D

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Better:jump:

Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 

Indubitably! Indubitably! Hip Hip Hooray! Jolly Good Show Ole Chap!

BTW: Are those bouncing boooobs that B your avatar on an Italian chick?