sounds like fun but I doubt I will EVER make that trip again in the summer time. I honstly dont know how people survive out there during the summer months. If I remember correctly it was something like 118/122 degrees . Thanks for the offer, if we come out there again that sounds like more fun than roasting with the relitives . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, we don't wheel during the summer much. If we do, the run usually starts at 10 pm. Most vehicles here that 4 wheel run "rock lights"....just some offroad lights or bright LEDs that illuminate just a few feet around each tire.

Wheeling season is typically from mid-October to around early May.

I always say Phoenix is 6 months of heaven, 6 months of hell.

Sean

Maybe I should have further qualified my response since it appears to have been missed.
First, I'm talking an H3, and probably goes over to an H2 and H1, but I will be first to state I'm not that familiar with these vehicles.
Second, I'm talking a vehicle with a full body, not a frame unit. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to note that the type of vehicle you are showing in the photos, would have plenty of airflow from top of the vehicle since there is NO body. In addition, heat rises, and it appears there is no place to trap heat and cook the fluid. I don't believe you would be driving this down Interstate 10 at 75 mph, or doing any city, stop and go driving.
I also believe that running rigs like that would tend to blow the trans for other reasons, thus when it is rebuilt, I would hope you would use new fluid.

Now, let me explain something. ALL GM authorized accessories have to be tested by GM.
First, if they affect a safety area, such as a front brush guard, they must be crash tested to assure it has no affect on the front discriminating SIR sensor. Don't want a front brush guard that is so strong, the front sensor does not trigger when required. Someone could get seriously hurt. This means plenty of input from safety engineers, as well as body engineers.

Second, they must not screw with emissions, or else places like CA will come after GM with a big hammer (called a recall). Other states would also be involved like in the NE states. This means input from the emission engineering section in the emission lab. If there are sound concerns, such as an exhaust system, then the requirements for states must be followed.

Third, it must not affect the warranty of the vehicle. In the case of the underbody protection, yes, there was input from the transmission engineering section. Concerns of overheating are stressed. Testing is done on all types of shields, over a long period of time, and then the approvals are given.
Again, any testing is done on the full H3, not an H3 without a body, it has to be a production intent vehicle.

If heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM (or the owner), then why does the owner's manual state under normal use, the trans fluid must be changed at 100K, but if under severe service it must be changed at 50K:

(h) Change automatic transmission fluid and filter if the vehicle is mainly driven under one or more of these conditions:

• In heavy city traffic where the outside temperature regularly reaches 90°F (32°C) or higher.

• In hilly or mountainous terrain.

• When doing frequent trailer towing.

• Uses such as found in taxi, police, or delivery service.

These four types of service allow trans fluid to get hot and stay hot, thus breaking down the fluid.

As I said in my previous post, GM assumes (yes this might be an incorrect assumption) that the person who has this underbody protection installed will leave it on the vehicle at all times. They will not install before running a trail, and remove after the trail has been run.
If a person desires a full underbody protection, and installs when required, and removes after, problems with heat destroying the fluid would be minimal (my assumption, not GM's).
For a rig like you show, I'm sure the protection stays on all the time, but again, that will not be used for commuting in rush hour traffic, or at least not on a normal basis.

I will also say that the trail you show looks like a hell of a lot of fun, but I will also state that my H3 will never run it. Maybe I'm wrong, and I would love to see someone prove me wrong, but I don't believe the H3 is designed to run a trail like that, even with a 2-6 inch body lift.

Maybe I should have further qualified my response since it appears to have been missed.
First, I'm talking an H3, and probably goes over to an H2 and H1, but I will be first to state I'm not that familiar with these vehicles.
Second, I'm talking a vehicle with a full body, not a frame unit. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to note that the type of vehicle you are showing in the photos, would have plenty of airflow from top of the vehicle since there is NO body. In addition, heat rises, and it appears there is no place to trap heat and cook the fluid. I don't believe you would be driving this down Interstate 10 at 75 mph, or doing any city, stop and go driving.
I also believe that running rigs like that would tend to blow the trans for other reasons, thus when it is rebuilt, I would hope you would use new fluid.

Now, let me explain something. ALL GM authorized accessories have to be tested by GM.
First, if they affect a safety area, such as a front brush guard, they must be crash tested to assure it has no affect on the front discriminating SIR sensor. Don't want a front brush guard that is so strong, the front sensor does not trigger when required. Someone could get seriously hurt. This means plenty of input from safety engineers, as well as body engineers.

Second, they must not screw with emissions, or else places like CA will come after GM with a big hammer (called a recall). Other states would also be involved like in the NE states. This means input from the emission engineering section in the emission lab. If there are sound concerns, such as an exhaust system, then the requirements for states must be followed.

Third, it must not affect the warranty of the vehicle. In the case of the underbody protection, yes, there was input from the transmission engineering section. Concerns of overheating are stressed. Testing is done on all types of shields, over a long period of time, and then the approvals are given.
Again, any testing is done on the full H3, not an H3 without a body, it has to be a production intent vehicle.

If heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM (or the owner), then why does the owner's manual state under normal use, the trans fluid must be changed at 100K, but if under severe service it must be changed at 50K:

(h) Change automatic transmission fluid and filter if the vehicle is mainly driven under one or more of these conditions:

• In heavy city traffic where the outside temperature regularly reaches 90°F (32°C) or higher.

• In hilly or mountainous terrain.

• When doing frequent trailer towing.

• Uses such as found in taxi, police, or delivery service.

These four types of service allow trans fluid to get hot and stay hot, thus breaking down the fluid.

As I said in my previous post, GM assumes (yes this might be an incorrect assumption) that the person who has this underbody protection installed will leave it on the vehicle at all times. They will not install before running a trail, and remove after the trail has been run.
If a person desires a full underbody protection, and installs when required, and removes after, problems with heat destroying the fluid would be minimal (my assumption, not GM's).
For a rig like you show, I'm sure the protection stays on all the time, but again, that will not be used for commuting in rush hour traffic, or at least not on a normal basis.

I will also say that the trail you show looks like a hell of a lot of fun, but I will also state that my H3 will never run it. Maybe I'm wrong, and I would love to see someone prove me wrong, but I don't believe the H3 is designed to run a trail like that, even with a 2-6 inch body lift. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

f5fstop,
I hesitate to even reply considering my comments seem to be just making more people angry, however, I would just like to say again (and you quoted it above) that I was also talking about full bodied rigs like small SUVs (Cherokess, Tjs, Cjs, 4Runners) as well as fullsize trucks (some have a bed, most don't), so in all fairness, it wasn't just buggies I was referring to (and most buggies have more heat restriction b/c unlike the one pictured or mine, yet, they have full floor pans and a much more confined space for the trans/tcase(s) to be housed)....some of these vehicles are in fact, daily drivers and DO NOT have an overheating problem; but you're correct, most are not driven on the road regularly.

This brings up another point though. As you pointed out in your other post....low speed crawling will generate more heat b/c of lack of air flow. Stop and go driving and highway driving are going to see more air flow and associated lower temps just b/c of the higher speeds, right? (Now, I'm not talking about a mud packed skid.....again, my narrow viewpoint coming out).

I'm not sure I understood your first two points about GM testing accessories and having to meet emissions standards. Do you mean that no accessory should be put on the vehicle unless GM approves it through their engineering and test department? Please elaborate.

As for your 3rd point about warranty of the vehicle....I never said, "heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM" and I surely didn't mean to imply that. Heat is the number one reason an automatic transmisssion fails....but it's too much heat. We've yet to determine through any kind of analysis that a skid would raise the temperature enough to be "too much". That's all I was saying.

You seem to have an intimate insight of the transmission engineering process at GM according to this quote: "the trans engineers at GM I know would never recommend a full body undershield". So did GM actually test the UCP with full shielding? Perhaps you know something we all do not. Any chance you could get one of your friends to register on the site and discuss the issue in detail? As an engineer myself, most of us nerds love nothing more than to talk tech.

Oh, and please don't take my comments as anything more than my opinion. I feel like we're adding some technical discussion to a thread that has been devoid of it and is really just people's opinions not backed by any real experience (coupled with childish insults).

Sean

Oh, and I found the video I was referring to when talking to Paragon.....it was actually DRTYFN's silver H2. My apologies to DRTYFN and Paragon.

Sean

Maybe I should have further qualified my response since it appears to have been missed.
First, I'm talking an H3, and probably goes over to an H2 and H1, but I will be first to state I'm not that familiar with these vehicles.
Second, I'm talking a vehicle with a full body, not a frame unit. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to note that the type of vehicle you are showing in the photos, would have plenty of airflow from top of the vehicle since there is NO body. In addition, heat rises, and it appears there is no place to trap heat and cook the fluid. I don't believe you would be driving this down Interstate 10 at 75 mph, or doing any city, stop and go driving.
I also believe that running rigs like that would tend to blow the trans for other reasons, thus when it is rebuilt, I would hope you would use new fluid.

Now, let me explain something. ALL GM authorized accessories have to be tested by GM.
First, if they affect a safety area, such as a front brush guard, they must be crash tested to assure it has no affect on the front discriminating SIR sensor. Don't want a front brush guard that is so strong, the front sensor does not trigger when required. Someone could get seriously hurt. This means plenty of input from safety engineers, as well as body engineers.

Second, they must not screw with emissions, or else places like CA will come after GM with a big hammer (called a recall). Other states would also be involved like in the NE states. This means input from the emission engineering section in the emission lab. If there are sound concerns, such as an exhaust system, then the requirements for states must be followed.

Third, it must not affect the warranty of the vehicle. In the case of the underbody protection, yes, there was input from the transmission engineering section. Concerns of overheating are stressed. Testing is done on all types of shields, over a long period of time, and then the approvals are given.
Again, any testing is done on the full H3, not an H3 without a body, it has to be a production intent vehicle.

If heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM (or the owner), then why does the owner's manual state under normal use, the trans fluid must be changed at 100K, but if under severe service it must be changed at 50K:

(h) Change automatic transmission fluid and filter if the vehicle is mainly driven under one or more of these conditions:

• In heavy city traffic where the outside temperature regularly reaches 90°F (32°C) or higher.

• In hilly or mountainous terrain.

• When doing frequent trailer towing.

• Uses such as found in taxi, police, or delivery service.

These four types of service allow trans fluid to get hot and stay hot, thus breaking down the fluid.

As I said in my previous post, GM assumes (yes this might be an incorrect assumption) that the person who has this underbody protection installed will leave it on the vehicle at all times. They will not install before running a trail, and remove after the trail has been run.
If a person desires a full underbody protection, and installs when required, and removes after, problems with heat destroying the fluid would be minimal (my assumption, not GM's).
For a rig like you show, I'm sure the protection stays on all the time, but again, that will not be used for commuting in rush hour traffic, or at least not on a normal basis.

I will also say that the trail you show looks like a hell of a lot of fun, but I will also state that my H3 will never run it. Maybe I'm wrong, and I would love to see someone prove me wrong, but I don't believe the H3 is designed to run a trail like that, even with a 2-6 inch body lift. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

f5fstop,
I hesitate to even reply considering my comments seem to be just making more people angry, however, I would just like to say again (and you quoted it above) that I was also talking about full bodied rigs like small SUVs (Cherokess, Tjs, Cjs, 4Runners) as well as fullsize trucks (some have a bed, most don't), so in all fairness, it wasn't just buggies I was referring to (and most buggies have more heat restriction b/c unlike the one pictured or mine, yet, they have full floor pans and a much more confined space for the trans/tcase(s) to be housed)....some of these vehicles are in fact, daily drivers and DO NOT have an overheating problem; but you're correct, most are not driven on the road regularly.

This brings up another point though. As you pointed out in your other post....low speed crawling will generate more heat b/c of lack of air flow. Stop and go driving and highway driving are going to see more air flow and associated lower temps just b/c of the higher speeds, right? (Now, I'm not talking about a mud packed skid.....again, my narrow viewpoint coming out).

I'm not sure I understood your first two points about GM testing accessories and having to meet emissions standards. Do you mean that no accessory should be put on the vehicle unless GM approves it through their engineering and test department? Please elaborate.

As for your 3rd point about warranty of the vehicle....I never said, "heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM" and I surely didn't mean to imply that. Heat is the number one reason an automatic transmisssion fails....but it's too much heat. We've yet to determine through any kind of analysis that a skid would raise the temperature enough to be "too much". That's all I was saying.

You seem to have an intimate insight of the transmission engineering process at GM according to this quote: "the trans engineers at GM I know would never recommend a full body undershield". So did GM actually test the UCP with full shielding? Perhaps you know something we all do not. Any chance you could get one of your friends to register on the site and discuss the issue in detail? As an engineer myself, most of us nerds love nothing more than to talk tech.

Oh, and please don't take my comments as anything more than my opinion. I feel like we're adding some technical discussion to a thread that has been devoid of it and is really just people's opinions not backed by any real experience (coupled with childish insults).

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't ****ing flatter yourself there sport. You've already displayed you level of intelligence.

You have added nothing but confusion since you obviously don't know much about a modern vehicle or one that is used both on or off-road. You float from forum to forum and try to write your little books to see how many words you can spurt into a post, but in the end, you offer no real advice.

It's really starting to get insulting that you assume that you have the end all answer and those of us here that work for AM General, GM, Aftermarket Manufacturers, Retailers, 4wd shops, yet you want to purport the position that since you have not personally approved of a "test" then it must not be so.

Logic doesn't have to be tested, except by idiots. If trapping a hot exhaust, a hot transmission between 2 layers of sheet metal and a boxed frame makes sense to you when the option of having the same protection with an open design doesn't, please, just move on, or it's going to get a lot more flamey around here for you.

WTH are you talking about. Are you now hearing voices in your head?

Maybe I should have further qualified my response since it appears to have been missed.
First, I'm talking an H3, and probably goes over to an H2 and H1, but I will be first to state I'm not that familiar with these vehicles.
Second, I'm talking a vehicle with a full body, not a frame unit. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to note that the type of vehicle you are showing in the photos, would have plenty of airflow from top of the vehicle since there is NO body. In addition, heat rises, and it appears there is no place to trap heat and cook the fluid. I don't believe you would be driving this down Interstate 10 at 75 mph, or doing any city, stop and go driving.
I also believe that running rigs like that would tend to blow the trans for other reasons, thus when it is rebuilt, I would hope you would use new fluid.

Now, let me explain something. ALL GM authorized accessories have to be tested by GM.
First, if they affect a safety area, such as a front brush guard, they must be crash tested to assure it has no affect on the front discriminating SIR sensor. Don't want a front brush guard that is so strong, the front sensor does not trigger when required. Someone could get seriously hurt. This means plenty of input from safety engineers, as well as body engineers.

Second, they must not screw with emissions, or else places like CA will come after GM with a big hammer (called a recall). Other states would also be involved like in the NE states. This means input from the emission engineering section in the emission lab. If there are sound concerns, such as an exhaust system, then the requirements for states must be followed.

Third, it must not affect the warranty of the vehicle. In the case of the underbody protection, yes, there was input from the transmission engineering section. Concerns of overheating are stressed. Testing is done on all types of shields, over a long period of time, and then the approvals are given.
Again, any testing is done on the full H3, not an H3 without a body, it has to be a production intent vehicle.

If heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM (or the owner), then why does the owner's manual state under normal use, the trans fluid must be changed at 100K, but if under severe service it must be changed at 50K:

(h) Change automatic transmission fluid and filter if the vehicle is mainly driven under one or more of these conditions:

• In heavy city traffic where the outside temperature regularly reaches 90°F (32°C) or higher.

• In hilly or mountainous terrain.

• When doing frequent trailer towing.

• Uses such as found in taxi, police, or delivery service.

These four types of service allow trans fluid to get hot and stay hot, thus breaking down the fluid.

As I said in my previous post, GM assumes (yes this might be an incorrect assumption) that the person who has this underbody protection installed will leave it on the vehicle at all times. They will not install before running a trail, and remove after the trail has been run.
If a person desires a full underbody protection, and installs when required, and removes after, problems with heat destroying the fluid would be minimal (my assumption, not GM's).
For a rig like you show, I'm sure the protection stays on all the time, but again, that will not be used for commuting in rush hour traffic, or at least not on a normal basis.

I will also say that the trail you show looks like a hell of a lot of fun, but I will also state that my H3 will never run it. Maybe I'm wrong, and I would love to see someone prove me wrong, but I don't believe the H3 is designed to run a trail like that, even with a 2-6 inch body lift. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

f5fstop,
I hesitate to even reply considering my comments seem to be just making more people angry, however, I would just like to say again (and you quoted it above) that I was also talking about full bodied rigs like small SUVs (Cherokess, Tjs, Cjs, 4Runners) as well as fullsize trucks (some have a bed, most don't), so in all fairness, it wasn't just buggies I was referring to (and most buggies have more heat restriction b/c unlike the one pictured or mine, yet, they have full floor pans and a much more confined space for the trans/tcase(s) to be housed)....some of these vehicles are in fact, daily drivers and DO NOT have an overheating problem; but you're correct, most are not driven on the road regularly.

This brings up another point though. As you pointed out in your other post....low speed crawling will generate more heat b/c of lack of air flow. Stop and go driving and highway driving are going to see more air flow and associated lower temps just b/c of the higher speeds, right? (Now, I'm not talking about a mud packed skid.....again, my narrow viewpoint coming out).

I'm not sure I understood your first two points about GM testing accessories and having to meet emissions standards. Do you mean that no accessory should be put on the vehicle unless GM approves it through their engineering and test department? Please elaborate.

As for your 3rd point about warranty of the vehicle....I never said, "heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM" and I surely didn't mean to imply that. Heat is the number one reason an automatic transmisssion fails....but it's too much heat. We've yet to determine through any kind of analysis that a skid would raise the temperature enough to be "too much". That's all I was saying.

You seem to have an intimate insight of the transmission engineering process at GM according to this quote: "the trans engineers at GM I know would never recommend a full body undershield". So did GM actually test the UCP with full shielding? Perhaps you know something we all do not. Any chance you could get one of your friends to register on the site and discuss the issue in detail? As an engineer myself, most of us nerds love nothing more than to talk tech.

Oh, and please don't take my comments as anything more than my opinion. I feel like we're adding some technical discussion to a thread that has been devoid of it and is really just people's opinions not backed by any real experience (coupled with childish insults).

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't answer all, but just to say, read my previous posts. I have stated that using a full underbody shield when off-roading will probably cause no problems, if it is a temporary item. The problem is, GM assumes you will leave whatever they sell on the vehicle at all times. This is the problem. I don't care if you are going 100 mph, if there is no airflow around the trans, and the heat generated by the trans and the cats is trapped, it will cause the trans fluid to degrade at a faster rate. I do not mean to imply it will show an overheat condition, it will just heat it up and cause it to degrade faster than designed (the severe maintenance schedule). If the engine flashes a code for overheated trans fluid, you have a big problem.
Will you notice this slippage? No, it will be gradual overtime, until it is a problem. Someone driving a vehicle, where the trans starts to slip over a period of time will not notice this slippage, it will be so slight, it will seem normal.

As for added accessories. You can add anything to your vehicles that you wish; however, GM as the manufacturer has to follow all the laws and safety regulations issued by the countries that they sell the vehicle in. That is the reason many accessories you see sold by aftermarket companies are never offered by GM, they can't, through their official channels.
GM can't offer a set of headers unless they meet emission regulations, you can add a set and not violate the law, unless you have a local I/M requirement. GM can't offer a super loud exhaust, since many states outlaw these loud exhausts, but you can install a loud exhaust. GM will not offer a front end brush guard that affects the operation of an SIR sensor. Not only is it against the regulations, but it would also lead to liability lawsuits. However, if you want to install one, they can't stop you, but if the bags don't go off as designed, you can bet they will fight you tooth and nail in court if you sue.
Only input GM (or any manufacture) has in regard to what you install on a vehicle is the warranty may be voided if the addition could cause a failure of a part (e.g., supercharger, turbocharger, etc.).

My last words on the subject are: You whatever you wish to use, chances are in some cases the trans will fry outside of warranty. Just don't bash the manufacturer; GM, Chrysler, etc., if it does fail.

Well, I guess you and I have re-hashed this to the point of repeating ourselves.....

The above post does bring about something you touched upon earlier and definitely has merit. As you and I both stated, the belly pan will increase the temperature and as you also stated before, it would be wise to follow an increased service interval (i.e., change the fluid more frequently) should one choose to go with a full belly pan.

I think where we may still disagree is whether or not the increase will be significant enough to cause damage (especially if one decreased the time between transmission flushes), but as you said it would probably be imperceptible to the driver.

In any case, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree unless one of your transmission engineers wouldn't mind giving his input.

Take care and happy trails.

Sean

I'm thinking no one really cares whether you agree or disagree, since you don't own any version of a Hummer, don't sound like you ever intend on owning one and are too damn ignorant to recognize common sense.

Why force the issue? Why force a belly pan onto a vehicle where you admit that temperatures will increase when a ladder design will do the same job (this is from excrutiating detailed experience from many owners) without any issues. But you want to keep arguing the fact from a position of ignorance.

Actually, no one else has even come close to hitting on that additional and very important reason why the H2 and H3 differs. I poked at it, hinted at it, but no one got it. Mainly because you can pick out when someone just wants to argue regardless of their point of view. It really doesn't matter to them if others read what they write and try to follow their advice and experience a failure. They just like mouthing what they typed back to themselves.

The H2 and H3 have nothing hanging below their frames. Everything is tucked. To try to draw a comparison to other vehicles on something like this without any intimate knowledge is futile and grossly negligent as a poster on this forum. To place a belly pan on one of these trucks wold be effectively sealing up in a metal box, the exhaust, transmission and transfer case.

Oh look, here's what was deleted.....
S </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Now, that's pretty damn weak. Posts it but then get's scared and deletes it.

ok, got a question for all you experts (and wannabes). I'm a cheap-ass, and prefer to make stuff myself.

I'm not using a pan.
I'm not likely to rock crawl to the extent I need to worry about regular beatings on the undercarraige.
I like to run things over in the woods, and have dented the oil pan on every truck I've ever owned, hence the need for some sort of protection just in case.

I'm thinking of taking 3/8" x 1" flat bar, running it front to back. Support it with 3/8" x 1" flat bar across every 6-12" from frame rail to frame rail. I'd run it the same length as the current factory UCP.

This strikes me as a balance between protection and clearance. It would have more clearance than the factory UCP (3/4" vs 1-1/2"), be a lot cheaper (about $30 total + my time cutting and welding), and should be just as strong.

Thoughts?

I still don't get this clearance thing people are bringing up.

IIRC, you have a front end, a rear end and a gas tank that has to clear.

Paragon-

Here's my most common problem. Here in the northwest there are lots of old logging roads that aren't maintained anymore. To keep crazy people like me off those old roads (which can have washouts and can actually be somewhat dangerous to Darwin candidates), they plow up hills at the beginning of the roads. Since I don't like to be told where I can or can't go on public land, I drive over these. Sometimes the angle at the top is such that the front wheels go down before the back wheel go up (imagine a pyramid that's a rectangle at the bottom and a ridge at the top - I don't know what the geometric term for it is). I've scraped that in the center between the wheels many times - my jeep and suburban both had some good protection, but I'm a little concerned about the lack of protection on the H3.

You are testing the breakover of the vehicle.

If you have a rear locker, getting by some of these are fairly easy. If you can go to it at an angle and get a front wheel over it and when your rear wheels approach turn into straightening up the truck can minimize some breakover issues.

Instead of only have ground contacts for the breakover, you effectively created 3 by staggering when the front tires reach the crest.

In all honesty though, I don't think, in most cases, the inch or so you give up for good protection is going to hang you up any, especially on dirt. The piece of mind of having sound protection to vitals when you are off-road is of much more importance than 1 inch of clearance because you just never know.

Agreed. At Tellico we watched one H3 w protection and one without protection go over many of the same obstacles where clearance was definatley tested. Both made it fine but, I do belive that the one w/o UCP was taking far greater risks each time the clearance was tested.

hehehe! But remember...that extra clearance w/out the UCP got me over that one rock on 6 that the other got stuck on...but agreed...I really need to get the UCP.