And you should also be embarrased by their actions. Just curious as to what your involvement is with EMS and search and rescue? Anybody in this field with an ounce of pride in what they do should be outraged at public safety response to this incident.

4@thebeach, Your a little late on this thread and casting quick judgments as well my friend. I suggest you read the entire thread before you insult these two gentlemen.

Marc,
I totally agree.

H2c,
Thank you.

4@tb,
Pony up, I've been doing this since 1980. What's your position and rank and who do you work for?

If one chooses to partake in the discussion here, please respect everyone else and at least read all of the prior post. Not only read them, but comprehend them as well. Our ignorance of all of the facts does not preclude us from making some factual assumptions. It is something that many people are forced to do everyday just to save lives, make assumptions that is. So I will further qualify this entire thread that the opinions and comments voiced here are the direct result of the information obtained here. It doesn't appear that the Rangers feel it necessary to review their actions or lack of action, nor does it seem that any additional followup information as related to the facts are flowing. So the opinions here are based on what has been reported thus far and those assumptions are educated guesses based on experience. Got it now. Does that make it easier to understand.

Brilliant!!! Why must this be your ONLY post? You belong here.

As Hummer Deity, I command you to stay.

I've stayed out of this one but finally felt compelled to post. My first thought is that none of you have enough facts to make some of the judgements you've posted. Second, Hummoron & others make some valid points (his H2 bashing & callousness notwithstanding). Third, are we evaluating H2s, OnStar or Emergency Services? And forth, my opinion is based on what I've read here, not on investigative facts. I have to equate this to my experience in aviation and since credentials seem to be playing a part I'll start there:

1) 35 yrs flying experience - personal/professional. Ratings not important. 2) Chief pilot/chief flight instuctor/chief check pilot. 3) Accident prevention counselor - Federal Aviation Administration. 4) Investigator/expert witness aviation litigation

With that said, my conclusion will be brief. Regardless of how many qualified individuals there are onboard an airplane, there's only one PIC (pilot in command) and he/she is soley responsible for the outcome of the flight. Same holds true with automobiles. Whoever is driving the vehicle is ultimately responsible for the outcome, period. Others may play a part but only contributory. Take the case of the 1978 USAC aviation accident where many of the officials were killed in a chartered flight from Trenton to Indy. I both investigated & testified in that accident. The PIC was a friend of mine. Both the FAA and the National Weather Bureau were sued in this accident and were found negligent & contributory, but the cause of accident was still judged to be PIC error. He had 60,000 hours flight time but still made a bad judgement that cost many lives. As for this H2 incident, it appears clear that the driver made some very bad judgements, and paid the price along with his passenger. To somehow infer that OnStar, EMS or Rangers caused these deaths is ludicrous. However, if the investigation ultimately shows that they were in fact somehow negligent in carrying out their duties in accordance with the standards set for them, they too will pay a price. And if that proves true, new standards will be set that will possibly save lives in the future. But make no mistake, there's a huge difference between the responsibility of preventing the accident and trying to save lives after the fact.

On a personal note I have to add that it's time people start taking responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming everyone else. The schools are full of it, the courts are full of it and so is society in general. We look in all directions to find someone we can blame for our own decisions. Adam made bad judgements and paid for it. That's the way life works. It won't be the first or the last time. The unfortunate part is that someone else paid a price too.

LasVegas, while I feel that I comprehend your point, nevertheless, the analogy seemed inaccurate. A plane crash is often immediately fatal. Not so in this Hummer accident.

In my mind a closer analogy would be if the plane crashed in a remote island, but everyone survived. An SOS was sent and received, but was given a cursory search and rescue effort (ie. no fly over). HOURS LATER, the victims then died of HYPOTHERMIA.

This is less about cause of his death, but more of why wasn't he saved?

I feel that if the search and rescue effort was perhaps closer to the standard that Marcmedic and Tower operate under, we will now be discussing heroism of the rangers involved -- instead of cursing their incompetency.

I have followed this thread since the first post by Paragon and until now I have stayed out of it too. But it has turned out to be such a huge, super long, on-going, thread that would not die, that I have to add my avatar/name for posterity.

So here is what I have to say about it.

" "

That is all. No value added.

LVJ,

I had no idea you were so accomplished. Also, for some reason I thought you were very young. Must be your spirit.

Peace.

H2Finally...I'm afraid you're proving my point. First, you only see those major headline stories where an airliner crashes and kills 175 people. There are many many other accidents of less significance with survivors that you never hear about so the analogy is sound IMO. Flying, 4 wheeling, or driving in Las Vegas is not inherently safe and the actions & judgement of the responsible operator causes death, not those that attempt to save them from their poor judgement. Should emergency services be held responsible for their actions? Absolutely. Should they be held 100% responsible for deaths caused by someone elses poor judgement because they didn't execute perfectly? Absolutely not. This is not a perfect world, but it would be a lot closer if more people would take full responsibility for their own actions. However, you are correct on the "cause" of death vs possible "saving". But their possible saving will forever be subject to debate where the reason the deaths happened appears to be absolute. In the not too distant past EMS & Rescue Services as we know them today didn't even exist and now we try to cloud our irresponsible acts with their performance.

Does that mean we can't be friends anymore?

Its funny how the blame culture works - last night I was pulling up to an intersection - I was turning right - the light just turned green as I was going to make the turn - a car came barreling through the light - and slammed into a kid in a pick up truck one block down crossing the street through a stop sign.

The kid in the speeding car ran - I tried to chase him down but he went over a wall into trees and I currently have a foot injury that prevents me from walking let alone run - so he got away.

When the cops showed up - about 5 minutes later - they blamed the kid in the pick up for the accident - stating that he had obviously pulled out in front of the car - which on the face of it would appear to have happened.

It wasnt until I stepped in and informed them that the driver of the car had nearly T boned me at the light and that he was probably doing in excess of 60mph in a 30mph zone that they started to realise that the driver of the pick up might not be at fault after all (who luckily was uninjured - the car hit the back end of his truck).

The point that I think that I am trying to make here is that we were not there - we did not witness the incident - we were not involved with the rescue attempts - it would be very interesting to actually talk to someone that was involved - and therefore we are not qualified to make any judgements or assumptions in this case.

The incident that I witnessed last night brought that home to me - one persons assumption of the cause of the outcome was completely different than the actual events that happened.

That is the best, most accurate thing I've read on this forum in a long time. And I find it sad that so many people in our society are unwilling to take personal responsibility for the decisions and actions they take.

LVJ,

I suppose; If I have to.

Andy C,
I am Adam's ex girlfriend. I spent my whole life with that guy. You have no idea how refreshing it is to see another point of view on this thread. I appreciate your contribution to this discussion. You have a good point. No one was there. No one knows exactly what happened. After reading horrible comments, (especially that hummoron made), about my ex boyfriend, I couldn't help but get frustrated, angry, upset, etc. I don't necessarily put the blame on anyone other than Adam, the driver, but I too don't know what happened that night. As a normal human being, I'm angered that ppl can just talk about someone I loved so carelessly (for a lack of better words). People here are entitled to their own opinion, but I know I've been emotionally drained reading this thread. I don't even know why I am putting myself through it. So, thank you for putting a different view on the table for everyone to see. You now know at least one person agrees with you here.

Come on ali648, with the exception of a few idiots like hummoron, who's not worth your frustration & anger, I don't think anyone is suggesting Adam deserved to die. Nobody will ever know exactly what happened that night but it's pretty conclusive that Adam placed himself and his passenger in a dangerous situation with terrible results. I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but that doesn't change the outcome. The best that can come from this is for you and others to learn a valuable lesson.

las vegas,
i think you are basically reiterating exactly what i just wrote. hummoron is an ass...he's the one that i personally don't like (and i said exactly that), i had said that no one knows what happened, and i had also said i didn't put the blame on anyone but adam. so what is so wrong with that? why did you tell me to "come on?" just a little confused about that one.

Okay, I'll retract the "come on" as long as you're not including some friends posts that just stated bluntly the obvious facts and results of Adam's poor decisions. And seriously, the good that can come from Adam's death is for 4 wheelers to learn a lesson from this tragedy.

Uhm...ok, your "whole" life?
You're not a stalker, are you?

Could you find an answer to my question on the other thread and get back to us, please?
And then feel free to go back to stalking whomever is your current stalkee.

Okay, I'll retract the "come on" as long as you're not including some friends posts that just stated bluntly the obvious facts and results of Adam's poor decisions. And seriously, the good that can come from Adam's death is for 4 wheelers to learn a lesson from this tragedy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't confuse her. She might stick around like a stray cat if we pay attention to her.
(Notice her stalking tendencies?)

drtyfn,
i'm not quite sure what your problem is. in case you aren't smart enough to comprehend my previous statement: "i spent my whole life with that guy" was supposed to mean that i knew him for a very long time, was good friends with him for 9 years, and dated him for 2 years. so fyi, i'm not a stalker, i was just simply very close with adam. and i don't think you should have any reason to believe i'd stalk you. especially not you.

and for las vegas,
i was only refering to hummoron, no other posts, so i'm glad that is cleared up.

9 years isn't quite your whole life... unless you're 11. Yes, you are a stalker. You're stalking our normally fun & cheery board with your dark cloud and dumped ass.
BTW, why did he dump you? No action from you?

it's something called an exaggeration, dumbass. and don't worry, i'm finished with your threads. everyone else in here seems to have tact, but you, your the biggest ******* in here. so like i said in the other thread, you aren't worth my time.

GFY!!! Please. You can take your stalking dumped ass out of here now. Buh-bye.

Oh, and I've got more tact than you'll ever have. Patience for pathetic whining, attention-whore stalkers is another thing.

I hate to say this DRTYFN - but your last couple of posts have made you look like an ******* - I have to agree with ali648 on that one - I dont see (unless I have missed something through not being bothered to read everything) how she has posted anything that would warrant being referred to as a pathetic whining attention whore stalker.

Grow up idiot

There's a point to all of this.

She continues to drone on about this tragedy, trying desperately to draw attention to herself. Why does she need to come in here, of all places, to "vent her grief"? Does the word "stalker" mean anything to you? She hasn't offered one god damn bit of information on the subject other than to exaggerate about spending her "whole life" with the guy. Her incessant whining & attention-whoring is really pissing me off.

You want an example of a true tradegy? Go to Pirate4X4 and look up the thread where the guy's wife, that had been suffering from mental illness, disappeared only to turn up dead after committing suicide. He has 2 small children to raise by himself after loosing his wife to a much more tragic event. He doesn't continue to bring it up over and over again. And he's been a member on the god damn board for a lot f*cking longer than this carpet-bagging interloper(meaning 1).

So you'll forgive me if my patience ran out days ago on these people that feel obligated to come in here to "defend the honor" of the Poor Darwin Award winner. Hell, if it were my friend, or even just an acquaintance, that had, say, wrapped his BMW around a tree, I wouldn't be going into BMW forums to cry about it for friggin days and weeks on end. Once is explainable, but this never-ending spotlight of stalking has got to end.

I totally agree - I am tired of reading this - but acting like a dickhead unfortunately fuels the embers - she goes off and whines to her buddies that she was treated like **** in here - they turn up defending her and everyone else involved and we have a whole new breed of trolls to deal with for the next few weeks - and it goes on and on.

Can we drop it now please.

Oh and due to my vunerable sensitivity I now have to sell my BMW because I have a mental image of you not going to BMW forums to cry about me - oh well back to bicycles again.

so
people drove their hummer into the ocean
they got stuck
then they died

am i missing something? besides blatant stupidity?

No, I think you've found blatant stupidity simply by looking in the mirror.

Since there is no new information to be had, and the weather in these necks is really purdy, how bout we just go out somewhere do some responsible four wheeling, and as I am the "beer bitch", will supply some Bud Light, but as responsible four wheelers, we also must drink responsibly. And, no that does not mean, if we don't spill the beer, we are drinking responsibly!

Have Jeep will travel

ali,
im sorry that what people say bother you. but you have to remember they dont know adam. this website to to talk about hummers, not adam. im not sayin that it doesnt bother me everyonce in a while, but you just have to remember the reason for the site. As for everyone else, i want to thank you for taking your time to talk about the possiblitys of what may have happened and who should be blamed.

The driver should be blamed.

Couldn't you two have said that in a PM?

Whoa, there, Sparkey!

I have put many posts on this thread regarding responsibility. Nowhere did I mention blame. Two entirely different notions.

Second, Ali, if your still reading this, please understand that drty LOVES getting a rise out of people. It's a quality I find kind of endearing, but you'll miss that part of it if you can't differentiate his (sometimes harsh) ribbing from his straight talk. I think sometimes even he gets them confused. Lastly, I'm sure you're not a stalker, but just in case you might be, PM me a photo and I'll send you my contact info.

I hope this got at least a small smile out of you. We all grieve, but we all must move on.

This is bordering on absurd. This thread shows up at the top of search engines and has had over 5000 views. The content obviously interests some people so give a little more thought to your posts than some of you have.

Jonahs, I orginally ignored your post because I thought it was somewhat not applicable but now feel compelled to correct you. I don't remember anyone on here saying that the accident itself was anyone else's fault except the driver. What has been debated the most here has been the actions taken or not taken by those after the call to Onstar. With that being said let me use your airplane analogy.

Take a plane that drops from radar and is suspected of crashing. It deviated greatly from it's original flight plan but the air controller has the coordinates of the last radar contact. He tells search personnel the plane's flight path but also says that he has the last known coordinates from the last radar contact. What took place with this H2 accident is akin to the search personnel NOT taking the coordinates but going and searching around the plane's original flight path. That would raise a stink no matter what.

This is not an all or nothing affair. The driver is at fault for the accident but why would anyone think it is wrong to question the emergency personnel for a response that seems very lacking. The idea that one can't make assumptions because we weren't there is even more absurd. We have what's been reported and we have a copy of the call from the 911 center to the Rangers. Just because newspapers don't report everything all of the time and get things wrong sometimes does not mean you just walk away and forget that the system might need improvement.

The rangers blatantly said that there will be no review of their systems as they don't feel they did anything wrong. Unfortunately, litigation seems to be the only thing that will get to the truth because as you said, people will not accept their due blame or even open themselves up to it. Litigation is a catch-22. Granted there are frivilous lawsuits but there are many instances in the past where it was the only way to right a wrong.

If for one minute anyone thinks that they would not be upset and not looking for answers if they found out that there was a chance their loved one could have been saved, think again.

Paragon
And the analogy applies 100%. There is no difference in responsibility between a pilot flying an aircraft and you or anyone else driving your H2. And I can assure you that when you board an aircraft you want to feel secure that the pilot is competent and responsible. Unfortunately that's greatly diminished these days with people and vehicles.

And yes, this thread is too long.

Fatal Assateague accident investigation continues



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jennifer Lehman
Staff Writer

(May 27, 2005) As summer quickly approaches and thousands of visitors begin flocking to the Eastern Shore, park rangers at the Assateague Island National Seashore are not planning any major changes to the rules regarding off road vehicles.
In February two people died after their 2004 Hummer overturned into the surf while driving off road at the island – an accident that has spurred an ongoing investigation.

Robert Fudge, chief of visitor services for the national seashore, said Memorial Day weekend is a popular time for visitors to drive along the beaches and no new regulations will be enforced.

“Everything remains the same in the off road vehicle zone in the way it’s marked,” Fudge said.

Meanwhile Attorney Charles L. Waechter, who currently represents families of the victims, is waiting on a lengthy report from the Department of Interior that will detail what may have happened the evening of Feb. 5.

However, the next steps the families will take “is probably premature to say,” Waechter said.

Surfers stumbled upon the body of 25-year-old Adam Starkey and his partially submerged Hummer nearly 12 hours after OnStar alerted authorities of an accident on Assateague the previous night.

OnStar, a vehicle safety device that automatically contacts emergency personnel when involved in an accident, sent a distress call to the Worcester County Sheriff’s Office just after 9:30 p.m. on Saturday, Feb. 5.

The Sheriff’s Office subsequently alerted Assateague park rangers who, according to Fudge, did a thorough search of an area where off road driving on the beach is permitted, but were unable to locate the Hummer.

On Feb. 6 the body of 24-year-old Jennifer Holly Ashe was found by a state park ranger on the beach, about four miles from Starkey’s body and a half mile south of the Ocean City inlet.

According to the state medical examiner, both victims died of hypothermia, which was complicated by injuries they received from the accident.

Over the last few months, authorities have kept a tight lid on the investigation, revealing very little about what may have happened during the 12 hour period before the two victims were found.

According to a 911 tape, somebody from inside the vehicle pushed the OnStar emergency button just after 9:30 p.m. on Feb. 5. While the OnStar operator said he heard screaming, he did not directly speak to the occupants.

“We didn’t receive a discernable response,” said Terry Sullivan, vice president of communication for OnStar. “The advisor indicated that he thought he heard a woman’s voice, but the sounds are unclear.”

The 911 tape also indicates that the OnStar operator could not find an exact location of the accident, but was able to disclose latitude and longitude coordinates.

“They were very exact coordinates,” Sullivan said.

However, Fudge said the coordinates were not an exact pinpoint of the location, but more of a general area.

“[The rangers] investigated with what they were given,” Fudge said on Feb. 23. “They looked in an area they thought was an appropriate area. It does sound like that it was very hard for them to get an exact location.”