better late than never
 

It's good to see military leadership lay down the law like this, but sad to know it's so needed in the ranks. I wish this statement had come out long before (not this long after) Abu Ghraib.

Now they just need to back it up. Let's see a similar statement from the President and CIA regarding our torture camps and prisons around the world.
_________________



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070510/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_battlefield_ethics


In a letter to U.S. service members, Gen. David Petraeus said that adhering to high moral values "distinguishes us from our enemy" and is essential to winning support among the Iraqi population ? the cornerstone of the new U.S. counterinsurgency strategy.
.......................


More than 40 percent support the idea of torture in some cases, and 10 percent reported personally abusing civilians, the Pentagon said last week in releasing its first ethics study of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.


The survey found that 44 percent of Marines and 41 percent of soldiers said torture should be allowed to save the life of a soldier or Marine. Thirty-nine percent of Marines and 36 percent of soldiers said torture should be allowed to gather important information from insurgents.


Only 47 percent of the soldiers and 38 percent of Marines surveyed said noncombatants should be treated with dignity and respect. About a third of them said they had insulted or cursed at civilians in their presence.
.....................................

Pentagon officials said they were studying the results of the survey and were revising training programs to focus more on values, suicide prevention, rules of warfare and behavioral health awareness.

Re: better late than never
 

Hmmm...

Re: better late than never
 

I think this entire topic is a big ass pile of $hit.....

Dont talk about it or the media and dems with run with it. Just by admission this will go to all out political war and fuk it all up.

There is no such thing as a FAIR FIGHT - let war be war - its dirty ugly sad and all the worst things you can imagine - you just cant put rules on it above and beyond the genevia convention. The gloves are off and the brass knuckles are on along with steel toed boots to stomp your a$$ with.

Dont like that? Dont pickup a gun and fight keep you a$$ on the side lines and stay the fuk out of the way.

Re: better late than never
 

Are we talking about the same thing?

My post wasn't about friendly fire, accidental death or the hell of combat ... It's about a Pentagon survey of troop atitudes toward torturing civilians, POWs, criminal suspects, and anyone else in our custody.

Anyway, the rules against torture aren't "above and beyond" the Geneva convention ... they ARE the Geneva Convention. Same goes for the treatment of civilians by an occupying force or prisoner access to medical care.

Re: better late than never
 

That can keep us from winning this war on terror. We need to be nasty to get this done.

Re: better late than never
 

Well sorry if I misunderstood - I still say pull all thier finger nails and toenails off while dousing them with alcholol for intel. :p

Re: better late than never
 

What if a gang of criminals kidnapped you wife/girfriend/mother/daghter (take your pick) and the police immediately caught one of them, but not the others (who still had your loved one captive and subject to rape/torture/etc). Would you want the police to torture the thug to save your loved one from rape? I would. If not, you probably don't care enough about them. Those Marines and soldiers probably care alot about their buddies getting wounded and shot by the thugs over their. Commendable. Would you torture Moussaoui on September 10, 2001 to prevent 9/11 if you could? I would. If you wouldn't, you probably don't care enough about the potential victims and their families.

Oh, and BTW, you don't know what your talking about with respect to the Geneva Conventions. A signatory "party will remain bound until the non-signatory no longer acts under the strictures of the convention." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention

Last time I heard Al Qaeda has not signed nor followed the provisions of the Geneva Conventions. Please feel free to correct me if you have contrary information.

Re: better late than never
 

:iagree: well said...

Re: better late than never
 

kill'em all, let god sort it out...

Re: better late than never
 

Oh you're good. Damn lawyers. :beerchug: :iagree:

Re: better late than never
 

Your right man! but even after 911, most don't want war. Bush lied and tied the hands of the military. Where is Ronnie when we need him.

Re: better late than never
 

Let's start with this, "If not, you probably don't care enough about them." You're saying that I'm not willing to torture someone for information. I don't really love my girlfriend/wife/family member. And conversely, if really do love them, I will torture anyone in my way for information.

That's a logical fallacy. There is no relationship between my love for my kidnapped wife, sister or girlfriend and my willingness to torture someone. I can truly, deeply and in all other ways love my family, AND be smart enough to realize that torturing someone won't help them. And please, dragging the red herring of "the greater good" across the trail isn't helping your argument any. Here's why.

Torture is inherently unreliable. First you have to assume you caught one of the actual kidnappers ... not a bystander. Then you have to assume he knows something (who, what, when, where, etc). Then you have to assume the other kidnappers won't change their plans, knowing their accomplice is in custody.

And finally, for torture to be any benefit, you have to assume it produces reliable results. It doesn't. Torture someone long enough and they will tell you anything. They will make up intel, confess to whatever you're asking, and sign anything you want. And even if they tell the truth, it is nearly impossible to determine the truth from what they lied about to stop the pain.

And there are even deeper consequences for a society to resort to torture. When we assume that our loss and pain gives us extra rights, we become what we hate. Why can we do what we want and get immunity from the consequences (when we hurt "the wrong people" by mistake), while we hold a suspect's feet to the fire? Oops, sorry I tortured your son for information. He lived next door to the guy we thought was involved, and we had to be sure he wasn't holding back, just in case he overheard something through the wall. Please understand ... I just wanted my girlfriend back.

No, hang on ... there IS a worse assumption. It's the leap from justifying torture in the defense of someone you KNOW has been hurt, to torture in case someone MIGHT POSSIBLY get hurt. In the first case, you might actually have leads, witnesses and evidence. But in the second, you have little more than your fear, desperation, conjecture and prejudice to go on.

So ... yeah, you can love your family, and still not believe that torture will bring them safely back to you, leaving you free from the consequences of caring so little about other people.

Oh, and about the Geneva Convention ... just because one side doesn't sign, or breaks their part of the agreement, we still don't have the right to break our part. The Convention puts the onus on the SIGNER to comply, not on the ones who don't. Adherence to the Convention is a mark of civilization and decency. If we throw that to the wind, we risk becoming self-justifying terrorists ourselves.

We talk about setting up democracy and making allies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Kidnapping and torturing their sons and daughters for information that won't be reliable anyway, isn't helping.

Re: better late than never
 

the answer :


TORTURE em but don't tell the press!

Re: better late than never
 

May I ask who is stating that torture is unreliable? Is this knowledge from people who have tried, or from people who want others not to try? I have heard it works quite well, not that I would know from personal experience, but....
Now if you are saying that torturing someone in a "cell structure" is unreliable, I might agree since I know no one who is experienced with torturing people in this type of structure, and a cell structure does compartmentalize the information.

I agree with RYD....

Re: better late than never
 

Wrong. Again, you don't know what you are talking about. The point of the Geneva Conventions is reciprocity. Read the quote I cited before. Your unsupported statement dies in the face of what the Conventions actually say - not what you want them to say. Countries abide by the Conventions so that others will do so and both sides can expect decent treatment for their POWs. Doesn't work with terrorist groups who routinely torture, maim, and kill your people. Under the Conventions, a nation has no obligation to fight fire with limp-wristed gheyness. It can fight fire with fire. To do otherwise is pretty stupid.

Re: better late than never
 

[quote=f5fstop]May I ask who is stating that torture is unreliable? Is this knowledge from people who have tried, or from people who want others not to try? I have heard it works quite well, not that I would know from personal experience, but....
Now if you are saying that torturing someone in a "cell structure" is unreliable, I might agree since I know no one who is experienced with torturing people in this type of structure, and a cell structure does compartmentalize the information.

I agree with RYD....[/quote]

undisclosed info feels it works....

Re: better late than never
 

A more complete analysis than I gave:

Re: better late than never
 

torture them, then kill'em all and let god sort it out...

Re: better late than never
 

Here are a few ...

Senator John McCain, http://mccain.senate.gov/press_offic...cle.cfm?id=128

Brigadier General David R. Irvine. http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/

Major (USAF) William D. Casebeer, Ph.D, http://www.usafa.af.mil/jscope/JSCOPE03/Casebeer03.html

And many more researchers and experts than I can quote here.

A quick Google search on "torture reliable" will produce more articles on the uncertainty of information gained through torture than the "reliability" of that information.

Here's an excellent discussion of the reliability and efficacity of torture by the Center for Defense Information http://www.cdi.org/program/document....&programID=39&

Also, here's a good interview with quotes from researchers, government leaders and FBI officials on torture and what alternatives are more effective http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/milit...ure_12-02.html

Re: better late than never
 

Come on. If we can't figure out how to fight this war with honor and without torture, we aren't as smart as we ought to be. This isn't a playground, and our job isn't to "pay them back" for everything they did since 9/11. Our job is to protect our nation, and hopefully stabilize as much of the region as we can.

This reciprocity bullsh!t doesn't work. It only shows our enemies that we care just as little for human life ... that we have the same disrespect for human rights ... and that we can piss on everything God represents ... just like they do. And that's not going to do us a whole lot of good.

Re: better late than never
 

Elect a Canadian President.

Re: better late than never
 

:iagree: 110%

Re: better late than never
 

LOL. "Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations.

They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof" (emphasis added).

In noticed you didn't bold the "in their mutual relations" part--the operative part. You don't understand much do you? What that says is that, if one of many powers to a conflict is not a signatory, all of the remainder of the signatories must still honor the Conventions among themselves--the signatories. Thus, if Russia, France, the U.S., and Al Quaeda are all at war, and the U.S. takes a Russian POW, it must treat the Russian prisoner as a POW under the GC. No one must treat the Al Qaeda terrorist as a POW under the GC.

The Geneva Conventions are not a theme or a poem about goodness. They are treaties, making them contractual provisions with specific obligations by which the parties to the contract, after thoughtful deliberation (in the U.S., a constitutional ratification process), agree to be bound. They are not decrees of general justness according to the fleeting desires of U.S. lefties.

The 3rd Geneva Convention clearly provides for an opt-in regime. It is the ?high contracting parties? to the agreement who are required to honor the terms with respect to the other high contracting parties. Others that have not signed the treaty may qualify for Geneva protections, but only by compliance with the GC's terms for the recognition of non-party rights. Al Qaeda has not done so.

Learn to read.

Re: better late than never
 

BTW: Protocol 1 does give some of the protections to non-signatory-guerrila fighters, but the United States did not ratify Protocol 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_I

We didn't do so, because we're not stupid. The operative provision of Porotcol 1 giving combatant rights to guerrillas would never have been needed to have been added if your fantastically tortured interpretation of the 3rd GC had any merit.

Re: better late than never
 

Finally found time to get back to this.

After researching this more, I see that you're right about the binding power of the Conventions. Since both the signatory and the non-signatory parties were named in this sentence, "in their mutual relations" appeared to refer to them both. But I see that in practice and general interpretation, that's not the case. I didn't realize this at first, but better late than never.

The Conventions are obviously contractual obligations. However, their stated purpose and intent has nothing to do with anyone's fleeting desires or whimsical intentions, whether conservative or liberal. The Conventions promote "justness" as you put it, through the mandate for impartial tribunals and the general improvement in the care and treatment of prisoners, civilians, relief agencies (like the Red Cross and Red Crescent) and others.

More specifically, the Convention covers civilians in occupied territories like Iraq and Afghanistan, civilians from any country in the way, militias, anyone who picks up arms thinking (even mistakenly) to defend their homes, POWs, and "unlawful combatants". They are all covered by the 3rd and 4th Geneva Conventions. Yes, even "Unlawful combatants" in Al Qaeda are covered until an impartial tribunal defines them as such, and even then they have rights (though fewer than a POW under the Convention).

Re: better late than never
 

I really only have one more thing to say. The Geneva Conventions aren't a license to do whatever we want to non-signatories. They are the world's best attempt at curbing and limiting wartime abuses.

Whether or not a nation signed one of the Conventions, it shouldn't stop us from treating prisoners and civilians like human beings. Question them, interrogate them, and detain them ... well yeah, they're prisoners. Deny them scented soap, DVDs, finger bowls and moist towelettes ... of course. But beat them, whip them and hang them by their arms for hours on end? Drown them, burn them, remove their fingernails and then break their fingers? I don't think so.

Torture only satisfies our own whimsical need for revenge. It doesn't gather reliable information or make our country any safer. In the end, it only creates a dilemma where we can't let our prisoners go, because the hatred we inflame in them will only infect their families and communities, until even our allies become our enemies.

Re: better late than never
 

Just one more note.
Has any country that has signed the convention, ever stepped forward to help prevent a country from violating the convention rules? (Other than those countries yelling and screaming at the USA.) In other words, this document is worthless since in most cases, civilized countries would treat prisoners decently; whereas the non-civilized countries such as Iran, Iraq, or terrorists, would torture, threaten, and behead prisoners.
The USA is condemend by many countries due to Gitmo; however, are these same countries saying a damn thiing about the beheading of prisoners in Iraq? NO. My opinion of the Geneva convention it is a typical worthless piece of paper.
It sure didn't help in 'Nam, it won't help in the middle east. It might work great if we had a war with England.
So, why are we even discussing this pos paper signed or not signed by countries?

Re: better late than never
 

:rant: :twak: WishIHaddaClue:twak:

You're a great armchair quarterback, aren't ya?

I know and care deeply for a Marine in charge of going to the house and getting suspected IED makers and terrorists.

DO YOU THINK HE KNOCKS ON THE DOOR?!

I only have one million more things to say...go join the bedwetter club, the rest of us want to win the war.

Re: better late than never
 

Of course. The GCs aren't a license to affirmatively do anything. They simply make it improper for signatories to do certain, specific things, which do not include--in the U.S.'s case--aggressively interrogating terrorist thugs who have been attempting to kill, or actually killing, Americans (and Iraqis) with terrorist methods so that we can save valuable lives going forward.

Re: better late than never
 

:iagree: :clapping:

But wait, the real problem is Islamophobia: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,273312,00.html:rolleyes:

Re: better late than never
 

Good point. No piece of paper will stop a nation determined to do what it wants.

Re: better late than never
 

Nothing like paranoid religious Imams.:giggling:
"This campaign of calumny against Muslims resulted in the publication of the blasphemous cartoons depicting Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in a Danish newspaper and the issuance of the inflammatory statement by Pope Benedict XVI,? the ministers said."

I'm not religious, far from it, but I have to say the Muslim sure do not get upset with blasphemous cartoons of Christ. I do believe Muslims take this prophet muhammad (piss be upon him) stuff way too seriously.

Re: better late than never
 

There is one other thing I want to clear up.

I don't hate the government or the military. My parents served in the army during the Korean war. My brother was in the Air Force during the 1st Gulf War. My nephew is joining the Navy. I'm proud of them all. And for years, I studied my brains out so I could fly fighter jets in the Air Force. It about killed me when my eyes went bad.

I just don't believe that torture generates solid intel, helps our cause in the middle east, or makes us better people or a better nation.

So no, H2rocks, I don't want your Marine friend to knock and say please before asking politely if there are any IEDs in the house. He better kick down the door, kill the ones he has to and secure the rest. But I hope to God the intel was based on something more reliable than an address somebody made up so we would stop drilling his fingernails.

That is all.

Re: better late than never
 

If they ever torture me, I'm gonna give em DRTY's address.

Re: better late than never
 

They arleady have it. They're just afraid to move in on his compound until he stops slaughtering varmints out there with his anti-tank weapons for more than 15 minutes.