Why torsion bars?

[Aaron Kappler]

I really like the H3, but I HATE the torsion bar front suspension. I've had too many 4x4s with front torsion bars that had awful wheel travel, were very expensive to lift, and had some reliability issues (GM and Ford).

It seems most manufacturers are moving to coil overs in front IFS 4x4s, does anyone know why GM did not move this way with the H3? Does anyone know if GM is planning to move to coil overs any time soon?

I've been looking at an H3 Adventure seriously for some time, but I cannot get over the torsion bars.

[Aaron Kappler]

I really like the H3, but I HATE the torsion bar front suspension. I've had too many 4x4s with front torsion bars that had awful wheel travel, were very expensive to lift, and had some reliability issues (GM and Ford).

It seems most manufacturers are moving to coil overs in front IFS 4x4s, does anyone know why GM did not move this way with the H3? Does anyone know if GM is planning to move to coil overs any time soon?

I've been looking at an H3 Adventure seriously for some time, but I cannot get over the torsion bars.

[HummBebe]

Please do not come on this forum to rant about your confusion. Please use the search button:

Here is the first one, it is a freebie....on me

Spring Under

Yes yes I know it says spring under, but there is a conversation about IFS as well.


Enjoy Kiss Kiss

[NEOCON1]

my 90 z71 has 160,000 miles and no problems with ifs

Probably more of a business/economic decision to recycle the Chevy Colorado 4x4 front suspension into the H3 chassis.

S.

[tailgunner]

yeah, go search for torsion bars, then when you don't find anything get shat on for not looking up a different topic. makes sense. now you're doomed, you'll never get help here, may as well go ask your questions on a jeep forum, they're nicer.

[PARAGON]

It's simple. As a spring mechanism, a torsion bar is the most dependable, accurate and long living there is right now for an IS setup. By using it, you can reduce the center of gravity, lower unsprung weight and reduce the amount of "junk" around the front wheel which allows for better half-shafts.

It's a "dumb" item that you usually can apply and forget it. Torsion bars are used in numerous applications from knives to trains to the M1 Abrams tank.

[f5fstop]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
It's simple. As a spring mechanism, a torsion bar is the most dependable, accurate and long living there is right now for an IS setup. By using it, you can reduce the center of gravity, lower unsprung weight and reduce the amount of "junk" around the front wheel which allows for better half-shafts.

It's a "dumb" item that you usually can apply and forget it. Torsion bars are used in numerous applications from knives to trains to the M1 Abrams tank. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent reply....

[NEOCON1]

i want the torsion bars from the abrams

[Aaron Kappler]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HummBebe:
Please do not come on this forum to rant about your confusion. Please use the search button:
Here is the first one, it is a freebie....on me

Spring Under
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually did search for torsion bars before I posted and came up with nothing relevant to my questions.

Your link provided absolutely no answers to my question. Kiss Kiss.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
It's simple. As a spring mechanism, a torsion bar is the most dependable, accurate and long living there is right now for an IS setup. By using it, you can reduce the center of gravity, lower unsprung weight and reduce the amount of "junk" around the front wheel which allows for better half-shafts.

It's a "dumb" item that you usually can apply and forget it. Torsion bars are used in numerous applications from knives to trains to the M1 Abrams tank. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, thanks for the good post. I know the torsion bar design has several advantages and that they are used in many applications. However, I have not been impressed with the torsion bar system in many of the current selection of consumer automobiles. I am more interested in a side-by-side comparison with the current selection of coil over IS systems to see if the coil over system does not offer other and perhaps better advantages.

I didn't mean to say that torsion bars themselves are inherently troublesome, rather the other parts (control arms, tie rod, and ball joints) that many of the manufacturers are using with torsion bars might not be the best choice.

Thanks for the posts so far, I look forward to more!

[DRTYFN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron Kappler:
I really like the H3, but I HATE the torsion bar front suspension. I've had too many 4x4s with front torsion bars that had awful wheel travel, were very expensive to lift, and had some reliability issues (GM and Ford).

It seems most manufacturers are moving to coil overs in front IFS 4x4s, does anyone know why GM did not move this way with the H3? Does anyone know if GM is planning to move to coil overs any time soon?

I've been looking at an H3 Adventure seriously for some time, but I cannot get over the torsion bars. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go drive one and then come back and we'll talk.

[HummBebe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Operator24
Hummer Veteran

Posted 12-28-05 09:49 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ted:
Alot of people will bash IFS, and tell you to cut it off, and SAS it. It's the cool thing to so these days. But, would you really want to hack up a new vehical?



I agree. I'm not going to hack into a 35+K truck like that.

I've seen IFS set ups that work on a lot of different terrain types. Jeeps (all but wrangler models) have switched over to it too. A lot of die-hard wheelers out there don't trust anything other than a dana 44 or 60 on the front end of anything. Thats a short sighted view on their part. IFS is way more controlable and comfortable when you're doing higher speed trail rides. Straight axles are just plain stronger and easier to fix in a rockcrawling environment.

I've seen in baja races where a straight axle front end rig tries to compete and fails. I've seen in rockcrawling comps where a rig with IFS tries to compete and fails there (walker evans tried it).

For a truck that will see a little of both the off road and pavement worlds, IFS is the winner everytime. Chevy/GMC saw that long ago, even Jeep sees that now. Their wrangler line is the only line they expect to see full scale rockcrawling so they kept the solid axle in there.


~Veritatem Cognoscere~ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So sorry, I thought this post is what you were looking for.

[Aaron Kappler]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DRTYFN:
Go drive one and then come back and we'll talk. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did and I really like it on road. However, I was unable to take off road, which is where my primary concern of the torsion bars is. In the past, I've owned two torsion bar 4x4s and did not particularly like either of them. I think the coil overs that a lot of the manufacturers are moving to is a better design.

Lifting a torsion bar rig essentially entails lowering everything. This does not exactly give rise to increased wheel travel. Lifting a coil over rig does not necessarily entail that, and I imagine with time will lead to greater wheel travel.

I wish more people would actually comment on torsion bars versus coil overs rather than attempt to insult me. I posted a valid question and would appreciate more thought out responses.

P.S. I've read some of your other posts DRTYFN and know you can provide some good insight on the various Hummers. Can you provide any on my question?

[Aaron Kappler]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HummBebe:
So sorry, I thought this post is what you were looking for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. Although related to IFS, not exactly related to my question of coil over versus torsion bars. Thanks though.

[HummBebe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron Kappler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HummBebe:
So sorry, I thought this post is what you were looking for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. Although related to IFS, not exactly related to my question of coil over versus torsion bars. Thanks though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Here is where I was dubbed "Queen of no flex" by a yota friend. This is IFS.

[Aaron Kappler]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HummBebe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron Kappler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HummBebe:
So sorry, I thought this post is what you were looking for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. Although related to IFS, not exactly related to my question of coil over versus torsion bars. Thanks though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Here is where I was dubbed "Queen of no flex" by a yota friend. This is IFS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice pic! The rear has very impressive flex.

[PARAGON]

The only gripe out of owners of torsion suspensions is when they go to lift it. The other suspension components are, if anything, better. The upper control arm might be viewed as weaker but I don't know of any manufacturer that has had a problem with upper control arm failures. The lower control arm is beefier than normal due to it being the component that supports all of the spring mechanism.

Tie rods, ball joints and the like can and would most likely be of all the same quality. They are not directly related to the torsion bar vs. coilover debate. I believe I answered the question for you from a manufacturer's standpoint. Torsion bar systems are cheaper, lower unsprung weight, more durable, less prone to need adjustments, etc.

About the biggest negative to them is the inability to create progressive rate springing, unless you want to lift the vehicle and don't have an aftermarket company that's spent the R&D dollars to come up with a new design.

[Huck BB62]

Why you wanna lift it? Goin' muddin'? I hate the way lifted vehicles handle on road, and offroad. Put on good skid protection and drag it over stuff! I know driving over big stuff is a blast but suckin' up seat material side hilling sucks bad! I know people want to get really serious with their H3s but really, look at the success of the H1. How much flex do they have? How valuable is it to be as hard to turn over as a sewer cover sitting in the street? How valuable is it to drive well on the road? Flex is good in a trail rig, particularly one with a roll cage in it! I've seen lots and lots of lifted rigs rolling over, not many stock ones. They sure look cool though! I think that if an H3 is going to go gonzo offroad it's going to have to take big one ton axles with ARBs, 37-44" tires, and a V8 to drive it all and then the rest would have to be beefed up to take it. 33" tires USED to be considered awesome. No longer. Heck, pretty soon we'll be seeing 60" tires on Rockwell axles! Egads!

[NEOCON1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Huck BB62:
No longer. Heck, pretty soon we'll be seeing 60" tires on Rockwell axles! Egads! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok who is up for a group buy ?

[daddyo]

Poor wheel travel and expensive lifts are just part of the territory with IFS. I don't see too much of an advantage with coils on the IFS.

Andrew