EATON FRONT E-LOCKER

[Hummie2]

Hey Thanks Mike....

That quick coupler idea sounds neat. I would have not thought of that one myself. I have a small metal lathe/milling/drilling machine combo in my shop at home so that might be a project I can run off when I find some time. The rear of the H2 looks like it would be easy to do and fast to disconnect as its right out in the open. Where did you get your JKS Quick Disconnect Links and do you know if they have a website?

Thanks, Don

[Steve R]

Hey guys....sorry I missed some convo. Funny how this seems like our own private topic, cool though.

You would think (and it totally makes sense) that the removal of the sway-bar would free-up and essentially liberate each wheel from influence from the other wheel. In theory...but only in application would one really know the actual results. Sounds like your on the right track with making it removable Don....keep up posted!!! (inquiring minds want to know!).

Mike, I spent some time with a buddy of mine who is insanely into 4x4ing. According to him it is not an established fact that SFA is completely superior to IFS...it's definitely a debate and argued issue. The one point I do see is that when one wheel goes up, the other is pushed down...and that would reasonably make sense to offer some benefits. I wonder why it is that Hummer chose the IFS then...no doubt it cost more?

A front-locker is definitely on the list of "must-haves", that should truly make the H2 quite unstoppable. Wish they had made it with one!!

Mike...when I was very serious about buying a Grand Chickedee, I was looking at the 2001 and wanting to lift it a bit and add larger tires. The salesman "looked into it" and came back telling me that the quadra-drive can not be lifted...it was some kind of special 4x4 system and not like the previous 4x4's. Now I find out different...just goes to show ya how you should get a 2nd opinion before taking anyones word for much of anything. Hmmm...might want to get a 2nd opinion on that opinion too! hehehe.

My sides are all scratched up...that darn clear coat scrapes to a white color, and I don't want to buff repeatedly down to my paint...so I'm wondering what to do. I might have gotten a white H2 had I realized this was coming. weep weep weep.

[Steve R]

Oh yeah...Mike, when I first met you and started talking shop I thought to myself....I bet Hummie2/Don would be into this...gotta get us all hooked up!

[Mike97ZJ]

I got the QD's from Dirk at www.dpgoffroad.com

Great guy to do business with.

He carries the complete line of JKS products at great prices. He mainly deals in Jeep stuff though.

Not sure of the JKS address, but I think there is a link to it off of the DPG site.

[JJ]

Hey guys, hope you don't mind me butting in.....I have an ignorant question to ask you. I've been asked twice now if our H2s have independent 4-wheel drive. After following you guys in this thread and some of the others I have a much better understanding of some of the mechanical stuff - IFS, SFA, and all the off-road driving modes.. But what is independent 4-wheel drive? If there is independent 4-wheel drive then if would reason that there must be dependent 4-wheel drive???

JJ

[Hummie2]

Here is a pic of the rear sway setup that I took of the display @ Houston Auto Show. Those JKS QDs might adapt pretty easy to the H2s rear sway Mike.

Steve check the pics of Safe Guard film in the scratch removal posts. Its expensive but probably cheaper than a new paint job.

[Hummie2]

JJ...
The only ignorant question is the question that is not asked. Feel free to ask anytime, we will do our best to answer.

IFS means Independent Front Suspension (which H2 has). SFA stands for Solid Front Axle ( like on Mike's Jeep Cherokee).

Here is a pic of the H2 IFS. You can see the front "A" arms and front torsion bar in red in this photo.

[JJ]

Hummie2 - man, you have the best photos of the H2 assy. After following several of Mike's and Steve's earlier posts I became more coherent on IFS and SFA, etc..
But what I'm still confused on is this Independent 4-wheel drive thing. Do you think the questions I've been getting referred to Independent Suspension versus solid axles?

JJ

[Hummie2]

JJ... I think I understand your question alittle better now. There is no such thing as independent fourwheel drive that I know of. We are talking of Independent Front Suspension.

H2 has a fulltime 4 wheel drive meaning that it is always in 4 wheel drive, usually in 4 High Unlocked Mode, meaning that the differential inside the transfercase is unlocked. This will let the front and rear driveshafts turn at different speeds as the vehicle goes around corners and over uneven terrain. If the vehicle were on a slippery surface like ice and the transfercase was unlocked as soon as one wheel lost traction the truck would not move were it not for the Traction Control/ Anti Skid System and the brake computer, just like when one wheel on a 2WD without posi traction looses traction. When the transfercase differential is locked in 4 High Lock or 4 Low Lock both driveshafts have to turn at the same speed as they are locked together inside the transfercase.

The transfercase can be seen in this picture behind the transmission (pretty big isn't it). BTW the thing on the frame rail with all the lines is the control for Anti Skid/ Trac Control.

Hope I made this explanation clear.

[JJ]

I had a feeling the questions I was getting earlier were in reference to Independent Suspension (like the H1 - right). I'd never heard of Independent 4-wheel drive.

JJ

[Hummie2]

YEP...

Your right JJ. The H1 has 4 Wheel Independent Suspension. The first H2 prototype had 4 Wheel Independent Suspension as well but was changed to IFS with Solid Rear Axle when the H2 went into production.

One more shot of the frame display. This view shows the electric shifter motor (black thing with the wire harness on it) on the left side of transfercase. The small black thing with wire harness at top center above driveshaft is the speedo sensor.

[This message was edited by Hummie2 on January 26, 2003 at 12:16 AM.]

[JJ]

Hummie2 - these photos are great, do you have the entire frame and drivetrain captured? I can see these coming in handy when I'm crawling around underneath checking things out before each and every long distance and off-road trip. If you do, maybe they could be posted in separate topic.

JJ

[Mike97ZJ]

Don, after looking at that pic of the rear sway setup you posted, I agree with you. I'm sure a set of JKS links could be adapted to fit pretty easily. The links are straight,and are pretty long. Most JKS links are adjustable for length to accomodate different lift heights.

Another thing to figure out is what to do with the swaybar once it's disco'd. On Jeeps, you can just tuck it up and out of the way. Doesn't look really possible with he H2 setup.

I have another suggestion though, after seeing the pic. Most setups I've seen have the swaybar bolted to the frame, and the links bolted to the axle, not vice versa like in the Hummer. It looks like it's just waiting to get snagged on something, hanging below the axle like that. What I would consider doing is removing the swaybar altogether before you go on a wheeling trip. Ubolt the 2 bolts per side that hold it to the axle, and unbolt the upper links from the frame.

"Mike...when I was very serious about buying a Grand Chickedee, I was looking at the 2001 and wanting to lift it a bit and add larger tires. The salesman "looked into it" and came back telling me that the quadra-drive can not be lifted...it was some kind of special 4x4 system and not like the previous 4x4's. Now I find out different...just goes to show ya how you should get a 2nd opinion before taking anyones word for much of anything. Hmmm...might want to get a 2nd opinion on that opinion too! hehehe"

Steve, just goes to once again prove my theory that car salesmen are for the most part idiots who have no clue about what they sell.

My advice to anyone looking into getting any kind of vehicle is always to find a BB such as this one and ask people who actually have one, and not listen to what the shyster car salesman has to say.

"Mike, I spent some time with a buddy of mine who is insanely into 4x4ing. According to him it is not an established fact that SFA is completely superior to IFS...it's definitely a debate and argued issue. The one point I do see is that when one wheel goes up, the other is pushed down...and that would reasonably make sense to offer some benefits. I wonder why it is that Hummer chose the IFS then...no doubt it cost more?"

Are baiting me here, Steve? Trying to get me into a debate?

Well, the H1 has IFS/IRS because it was a military design requirement. They wanted the underbody clearance that the IFS/IRS gives.

I'm sure in the case of the H2, it costs LESS than what SFA would, because the IFS setup is right out of the existing GM parts bin. GM does not make any vehicles with solid front axles anymore. They haven't since 1991, IIRC. I also think that ride quality was a big reason for the IFS. It's easier to make a good riding IFS than it is a SFA. Although Chrysler Corp SFA vehicle ride very nicely.

I don't want to get into that debate about what your buddy said, mostly because I'm way outnumbered here. I'll say this though, short of a purpose built, big $$ IFS system, stock for stock, the SFA is better for rock crawling. Maybe you don't like to rock crawl, but would rather blast through the desert at speed. In that case, IFS is better, and IFS/IRS even better yet.

It all depends on what you want to do with it.

Another thing to think about is that SFA is much easier and cheaper to modify for more height and travel than IFS.

My buddy with the '99 GMC is currently gathering parts and plans to torch out his IFS and swap in a solid axle. This is actually becoming a common swap, if that tells you anything.

JJ, glad to hear that you are getting alot out of these tech topics.

Like Steve said, the only stupid question is the one not asked.

I've been getting alot out of them too. I've really learned alot about the H2 in the few weeks that I've been here.

I'm glad that I can read these forums and have technical discussions like this, and not just read endless posts about which chrome grille guard is better and who makes the best 20" wheels.

[This message was edited by Mike97ZJ on January 26, 2003 at 10:49 AM.]

[Hummie2]

Mike...

Good point about the sway bar might get snagged. That was my first thought when I saw it for the very first time too. But then I thought about maybe the engineers left it down there for a reason, although they could have designed around the problem altogather. There are quite a few lines, wires, cables and a expensive air compressor & valving set-up above the sway bar. With the sway bar down like it is maybe someone will stop when the hear it draging on the rocks instead of continuing on and getting some more expensive parts snagged that are above it. Sometimes things are a trade-off when it comes to design and ease of production & costs usually win out.

Here are a few more pics of the rear and some of the more of the air compressor assy.& ride height sensors. It could be easy to damage in some cases, one of the reasons I decided to go with rear coil suspension, besides the coils were $1175 less cost and ride great.

[Hummie2]

Picture of the rear air suspension bag. The bag is completely deflated here and not resting in its seat on top of the rear axle.

[Hummie2]

Heres one of the air compressor assy. and associated valving. I think the round object partly visible on the right to right of the compressor motor is a air drier/ filter assy., not sure though.

I was supprised at the size of the compressor. Larger than what I expected. Its rated a 11 amps. and 1/4 hp. motor.

[This message was edited by Hummie2 on January 26, 2003 at 12:04 PM.]

[Hummie2]

One last shot of the ride height sensor. It sits atop the upper control arm pretty close to the tire.

[buddy]

Mike,

I've seen more and more of GM IFS getting switched over to SFA. I have a friend who has done a few conversions using Ford parts. He did his first about 5-6 years ago for a customer who uses it now as a show truck.

The debate over SFA and IFS is a no win deal.
You'll never convince hard core SFA guys, there's anything else, and I can see the point.
I've seen them do things in their trucks that I wouldn't do in my Chevy, or for that matter, couldn't do.

I think most of the hard core off-roaders would prefer SFA. I only do moderate off roading these days, so the IFS works for me. Heck, that's the only act GM's got.

Buddy

[Mike97ZJ]

Buddy,

Yeah, I don't want to get into that debate. Everyone has thier own opinions about it, and sometimes its like talking to a brick wall. It's very hard to change someone's opinion.

IFS is good enough for most situations. Add a front locker, and your all set.

Don, those are some great pics you have. I see what you mean about all that air suspension junk in the way. Not much room up there for the swaybar. Good call on going with the coils, seem to me the air suspension is just another thing that will need fixing somewhere down the line. I tend to like things simpler and can do without electronic gadgets like that.

Keep us posted if you ever get around to designing some disconnect links or experiment with removing the rear bar.

I wonder if it would be possible to engineer disconnects that will allow the whole bar to be removed? Maybe get some QD's for the links themselves, and then get some wing nuts or something similar for the bolts that attch the bar to the axle. I'm thinking something like those wing nut valve cover bolts they make. The ones shaped like a "T" that you don't need a wrench to remove.

Before I got my JKS QD's, my "quick disconnects" consisted of a 1/2" drive ratchet with a torx bit and a 18mm box end. Reason I bought the JKS units was that my stock links needed replacing, so at $40 each from the dealer, I might as well fork over the extra $40 and get the JKS.

[Steve R]

Well....I suppose it's only proper to welcome JJ and Buddy to what has become the premier tech-thread on this forum. It's all good (so long as JJ doesn't go nuts over the air compressor issue...sheesh).

Mike....I'm not trying to drag you into an SFA/IFS debate or anything, I'm seriously just fascinated by the technical merits of each. I don't really think of things in terms of opinions...we just study facts and support conclusions.

I sincerely appreciate the education on the subject matter. At present, my thought is that GM should have given the H2 either the H1's gear-driven hubs for awesome clearance OR have gone with an SFA...and that's what I'll be telling the reps and others! And when someone asks why GM didn't use SFA....I'll also know that it wasn't part of their existing parts bin.

What it comes down to is this: I didn't design, engineer or build the H2....I merely laid down the cash for it. I have no 'defensive ego' to protect in supporting the thing. It is what it is and I'm open to knowing/understanding both the strong points as well as the weak. With that said....Jeeps suck!!! (kidding)

Don, the air suspension is actually pretty cool. Not only does it offer all the cool sounds of the air-release occassionally, but it does jack the back up for additional clearance...that clearance DID make a difference over that rock-garden as compared to rigs that didn't have it! GM typically just calls the feature "auto-ride", but by adding a switch and sensor, they were able to allow it to be used also as a height control.

Sway-bars....yeah, I see them hanging down and wonder why they did that. Oh well....could removing them while offroading really make that much a difference? I can see how it would allow each wheel to be more independent....but by how much?

I became friends with Tom Cepek (son of Dick Cepek). He's working on a suspesion system where shocks can actually follow the terrain and the computer can make adjustments. We've all seen those old cruiser-cars that hop and move around....well, he's going to have some kind of deal where each wheel can be manipulated. Imagine running a side-slope and still being level inside the vehicle. The computer could totally raise one wheel and fully extend the other (better then simulating SFA). Course...this is in the works AND will be costly....but the future is indeed interesting.

Anyways..that's long enough a post. And Mike....which chrome grille guard is better and who makes the best 20" wheels??