Turbocharger

[KenP]

That's going to be awesome. I swear the best part is scaring the ricers with that big-ass truck sitting on them. Trust me on this.

[LasVegas]

KEN...The more I've thought about it I'm just wondering if I shouldn't do something to the transmission? What's the least you could do to strengthen it a bit...you know the bands, etc. And I wonder about what that costs. I really don't plan to be stomping on it from the stop light..I just don't drive that way anymore but there's bound to be occasions where I'll stand on it in traffic, passing, etc. What's your honest opinion Ken?

[KenP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This message has been edited. Last edited by: LasVegas, 04-13-05 09:08 PM </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Was that a "pull out" thingy?

I'll be spot on honest here. If you your dealer won't warrant the trans then I would leave it as-is. If you don't blow it, then good and you saved a few bucks. If you do nuke it, oh well. It wasn't covered anyway.

That's what I really think and that's what I'd do.

I'm sure STS won't warrant the driveline for you, but since you're their first install it may be worth asking for. I look at it this way, they're going to use your truck for advertising, shouldn't you get something? (Now if you're getting a deal like labor plus cost that's different and I would be happy with that) It's not like you're asking for cash, just cover some potential problems. In reality, STS could use the trans upgrade as a potential add-on sale.

That makes it a win-win situation. Major advertising potential for some assurance.

Now I can't wait for the pics. BTW, I used a trashcan sized Garrett on my Buick and never had a problem with coking no matter how bad I treated it. That's something you won't need to worry about with the location of your turbo, but thought you may like to know.

Now what's really cool is I don't see anything about an intercooler. I know the charge air is not going to be as hot as a conventionally placed turbo, but there will still be high temps there. With your ingenuity I bet you'll be able to pick up a Spearco or similar intercooler and adapt it to fit.

I think there's a ton of potential here.

[LasVegas]

Thanks a lot Ken. That's very logical on the tranny. Actually they swear the length of the run gives about the same numbers as an intercooler for the basic system. Now if you want their higher boost systems they include an intercooler so you're dead on correct. They're going to send larger injectors with the system but the installer says he doesn't think they will be necessary & we'll test without and send back for credit if not needed. My modified air/fuel ratio lights have already told me a lot. At WOT (in open loop) they're solid blue meaning very rich...I want more air. Interesting. You'd have thought GM engineers could have called it closer than that to increase MPG.

[KenP]

I know you'll check your pm.

What's great is they are working with you.

What's sad is GM's over-concern for performance enhancements. Running rich can cause many longterm problems. Humm, TB clogging? Cat issues?

The programmers have it easy, just lean out the engine a tad and BAM! $400 please. Instant performance gains and some may argue MPG increases.

Frankly, it's rather irritating.

[KenP]

BTW, even if you don't run an intercooler, you should get the info off the injectors for the future. Look closely for the numbers. That's all you should need. If you can't get what you'll need, ask them. If they're evasive, which they will be, try to get the lb's and flow. In the past I've used the manufacturer, colored top, and part numbers as cross references.

Do they mention anything for the fuel pump to increase volume or pressure?

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KenP:
I know you'll check your pm.

What's great is they are working with you.

What's sad is GM's over-concern for performance enhancements. Running rich can cause many longterm problems. Humm, TB clogging? Cat issues?

The programmers have it easy, just lean out the engine a tad and BAM! $400 please. Instant performance gains and some may argue MPG increases.

Frankly, it's rather irritating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That is sad & irritating. I trust the lights because they're reading directly from the oxygen sensors each side & they both agree. On the fuel pump they say it shouldn't be needed. You can install it if you want to but they don't think it will be necessary with the injector size they recommend.

[GeorgeSSSS]

Would it make sense to install headers to handle the higher volume of exhaust gas? It seems to me this would increase milage and power as well as help keep the exhaust valves cooler. Might be overkill though.

George SSSS

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GeorgeSSSS:
Would it make sense to install headers to handle the higher volume of exhaust gas? It seems to me this would increase milage and power as well as help keep the exhaust valves cooler. Might be overkill though.

George SSSS </div></BLOCKQUOTE>George. For whatever reason they say it isn't needed with turbocharging vs supercharging. Not that it would hurt but they say not to go to that expense.

[LasVegas]

I'm not soliciting anything here. For a long time STS didn't have an interest in a system for the H2 because they didn't think there was a market for it. I'm trying to get future discounts for members of the forum and you know there are strength in numbers. Those that have a genuine interest in turbocharging their H2 subject to how mine turns out might want to let me know so I can throw around some numbers with them. Just post or PM if you have an interest.

[DLEPEZ]

I for sure have an interest in the turbocharger. I was thinking supercharger but after reading this thread, I'm very interested. If yours goes well I will for sure get one.

[cougar2]

ditto DLEPEZ - I, too, was going to supercharge, however, I'm going to wait and see how your turbo turns out ... may go the turbo route instead !

[HUMMERcustoms.com/TAZ]

This is My experience and what I'm doing. Just wanted to share the info I have collected for 8 months or so. Lot's of info here if not interested just warning pass it up. Do not want to change anyones mind just offering what I have learned.

Paragon and I as well as KenP have discussed this turbo stuff in PM several times.
I have been working and researching this since last fall well, started talking to STS last summer when this kit was posted on here the first time. I have to admit I'm a little disgruntled due to the not going to do a H2 and have no plans I was told. I told the guy they sent me to do not worry I feel H2 customers are worth the effort and I'll find my own turbo system to run without STS on it. That was when I got off on to designing a twin kit.

STS does not recommend headers at all or they did not last winter when I was trying to get them to work with Me. Their additude has changed alot now and Jonahs had allot to do with that. I think they had more enguires as the year went on and Jonahs pushed them into doing what they should have done on there own along time ago. I tried to get them into a program deal that Jonahs worked out and they told Me not interested in H2's not enough business there. I told them if they would look at money spent per owner on stock vehicles a Hummer owner most likely top's the list and if not they have the desposible income to do it. I had a guy that they refered Me to since He had done allot of R@D for them and Pontiac putting an STS on a G6 and GTO for Pontiac. He tried to convince them the R@D was worth it and volunteered His labor if they would help and set an amount they wanted Me to spend. 2 months and We gave up and started on Our own. He is still is furnishing labor and R@D. He has a custom turbo builder helping Us. We are going to do a twin turbo similar for My personal use. I figured if I was going to do one just go twins as when i talked to the turbo shop he said He had already put STS on his wife's Suburban from a base kit when it first came out, had to go up in turbo size and pipe length. Runs great He said but, needs injectors and a few other things. He priced everything he thought it would take and I said I can have a SC for allot less, maybe not the perf.
We are using a different pipe coating and many other different things. We have tried several sizes and now are looking hard at some small turbo's that the rice rockets have been using to spool up quicker and found there mapping is over a broader RPM range than most of the turbo's recommended for a large block app. They have to be custom built as We are altering them from normal. This way We can have it spooled up before 2000 RPM and it will not lose top end boost like just jumping down in turbo size can do. You get into a give and take situation with the RPM range as many of Us have talked about in PM's. This is looking like it may help that alot.
STS said that headers would increase the exhaust flow to much and cause to much back pressure and a bottle kneck at the turbo. They are correct. you are trying to push exhaust trough a 1" hole versus what ever exhaust pipe size your using and that is if You are using the larger turbo's. The base kit hole is more like 3/4". They want the vehicle to be completely stock and it does not need to be more than that for their base system. I would have to chunck the $2000 in perf. mods to use STS. It works great. It is not unusual to get 100 Hp gain as well as a nice torque increase from the base kit. Jonahs should do better with the upgrades He is getting. Once You buy the base You pay for everything else on the side. Larger Inj., ADVANCE tuning, extra fuel pump, gauges, and so on. You can have $7000 in the system real quick if You want the very most perf. You can get out of it. If You change one thing on the kit youhave to go to the $500 tuning. They trade PCM tuned for stock equip. on the base kit. That is the number I was looking at if i did everything that could be added to base system. My man said for alot less We can do the twins by going to different vendors for different items. There is allot of upside to the base system. After We started R@D on the twins they checked back and He told them what We were doing and they would not support that either as they have made a blanket statement on their website saying that twins would not be helpful. I can understand that problem. We have found that with twins You can run header catback system and all the other perf. stuff You want as back pressure is relieved considerably. Twins We found will be very helpful when trying to move 7000 lbs. versus 4000lbs. (if that much) of an f body car for which the sytem was originally designed for. We shared allot of this info with them, so they may change their minds on twins as well, I hope so. They make it work for bigger engines and weight by using larger turbos and lengthening pipes depending on wheel base. I go every so often to check up and He does tests on another rig We have doing the R@D on. We do not use STS stuff as when We started even thinking about the single they would offer no support, so if I figured I had to be My own support I may as well use parts that will be warranted. I asked Him about twins and He said it most certainly is a viable idea and I'll provided free labor and research if You furnish parts. He then got a custom turbo builder to get involved and donate His time. We are using off the shelf parts so We can be sure of warranty once We get it to where it needs to be. That way if someone wants to do it the parts are easy to get. It is still a while before We get done and I will not sell it Myself to anyone but, I do not know what He is going to do. He is an independent shop that carries many brands of turbo systems and He may sell and install just for His clients. I may just give the specs to anyone who would like to do it. It is just something different and getting the heat out from under the hood is a great idea. STS is a very good company from everything I have read and heard. I would recommend them without hesitation. They have been very good to Jonahs and would be to anyone that is doing something they have. I believe without a doubt this Co. would stand behind there product once it is an off the shelf kit and they have done all the R@D to be sure it will function. Jonahs designed a great setup for gauge cluster that i recommend and I'm going to use.
Turbo's are universal and anyone can try what ever idea they want. Any of You that want a turbo do not even have to buy a kit. Go to a force induction shop and if you can imagine it they can try it. In fact We at the same time are messing with a sequential turbo set up to broaden the range of RPM to keep boost building or just maintaining it. That is a very interesting idea that the custom turbo guy got us into and there is a major car co. that will have a deisel with sequential coming out if it is not already, have not checked. So We are seeing if We can do something with it in gas.
Anyway if You have any questions PM me on what is happening if You have interest in the twin stuff and Jonahs has kept Me up to date on His system so He will be Our test subject on the STS. He is getting allot of feedback from STS.
He has all the latest info on it. We have kept check just to see if STS is doing anything different.

I will be putting on a SC by the end of April if I can get it painted and installed in that time frame. Alot has to do with Me getting the SC in time to finish the project by end of April. It is on it's way. We hope to have turbo finalised by the end of summer. It is allot slower than i had imagined but, the induction guy is very careful not to waste parts on a whim so I'm greatful for that. We are going very slowly and carefully to be sure We do it right and not build something quickly that will cause damage. We just do not want to do the project with a final install without very in depth testing. There are pluses and minus to both SC and turbo. What I have found is if You shop you can get a complete SC kit with intercooler, injectors, fuel pump, etc. for less than a turbo with all the same stuff. In fact as much as $2000 less.
But, I believe You will get absolutely better perf. out of a turbo. So it is just boiling down to what you like or are use to. I plan to build an offroader later maybe this year and put twins on it or put SC on it and twins on the Mall Queen.
Good luck Jonahs You the Man.

I hope You can get the discount as I told them last fall and winter if i helped with developement that I would like to get a discount for forum buddies and they did not care at that time. I hope they have changed. If You guys go with the base unit it will help allot but, if You start adding turbo's and other stuff which when I went to the guy they sent Me to He said the first thing was go up in turbo size, larger inf., extra fuel pump, etc.
I asked why, He said because your talking 7000 freakin pounds not 3500. You got to have a turbo that is going to spool up a little quicker. He said his experience is the kit turbo will start spooling good at 3000 RPM. Yes the H2 gets there guick he said but, by that time everybody else is gone. I ran numbers on My Girl with no forced induction and will run more using Gtech Pro and I'm showing 325 to 355 at the wheels avg. over 7 runs. I still do not know waht to make of it as talking to tech said trust it. I'm going to make a bunch of runs yet. But, the 0 to 60 is only 9.32 sec. slow to start then blast out at about 3000 RPM. Granted i have allot of mods. But, I wished it had more low end to get it rolling and it just will not roll quick enough. Agrivating but, I'm not going to the NHRA either.
Let us know how it goes Jonahs and the numbers when they dyno it. This could be some affordable power if they can make a kit at $3995.00 with the items specific for H2. It will be the way to go.
TAZ

[h2co-pilot]

HAIL!!!To the QWERTY KING!!!!

[LasVegas]

Things are moving quickly here with STS. First, let me say that I'm NOT talking with a dealer. I'm dealing directly with an STS representative and just got off the phone with him. Here's where I've gotten so far:

1. All forum members will be able to talk directly with him for orders, not a dealer even though they do not sell direct.
2. He will put you in touch with a dealer if you want an install.
3. He's working on a discount for all forum members. This will have to be confirmed (probably through me or some other method).

So those of you that have an interest please let me know so I can at least talk in numbers with him.

On the technical side after their initial R&D they changed from a Garrett 60-1 to a Garrett 67 turbo. The reason is because of the 6.0 liter and exhaust size/volume. Spool up time should be equal or better with cooler temperatures.

[HUMMERcustoms.com/TAZ]

Guys I hope You jump on this with Jonahs. With Him running blocker and talking to STS is the best chance for this to work. The more people interested the better He will get the price. They felt there was no market last year and when I talked to STS from the beginning till I gave up they were not interested because of no one showing interest in this for H2's and I tried to tell them how many from our forum may be interested. I asked the dealer could He talk to them and convince them and still we got no where. Please do not miss this chance. You will like this product. Help Jonahs. I just want to incourage everyone that is remotely interested in this give Jonahs some ammo here to use. If this falls short this time it may not ever happen again. I had given up and figured they were not going to do anything like they said and designing My own, I had just given up and My SC is on the way till I get twins. I wish I had held off a little longer to help with one on My rig. I hope everyone will get on board. If Jonahs does not have the financial support to hold the cost down, I have been through this I know what the cost are involved to get the kit like it should be for the H2. Jonahs has them going in the right direction now with His rig and needs help to get the kit with the stuff in it to give the H2 everything it needs without adding all the cost on the back end. Go to the STS website You will go to add ons and see everything that is not in kit is paid for extra on top of base kit. It is available for a reason, because it gives more power or they would not offer it. Jonahs can negotiate this now while they are letting Him help design the kit for an H2.
Jonahs if it comes down to getting one or 2 more to help it out, let Me know I will see if I can buy a couple or something. I have a friend or 2 that I may be able to get to buy. What ever it takes for this opportunity You have brought about to make it. All I got was a headache for months asking them to build one. You have gotten them farther in one week than 2 months I talked to them and dealer talk to them. Let me know what I can do. It is a great product if You get a base kit with everything you need and do it in Your driveway. The kit for GM SUV is $4995 I think is latest price not sure on the latest. It is higher because they had more piping and larger turbo involved is what they told Me. The coated piping they use is very good and expensive, so the more of it the more cost. I doubt it will be any lower unless Jonahs can get a break for the forum by having a group discount. If He can get it at that price with inj., etc. would be a real bargain. Nelson tuning is what You have to have, if You do not have the PCM they furnish already tuned to meet Your need, it is an extra $550. It is so important that the interest is there so He can ask for all this stuff up front. You will need it.
Jonahs let Me know what I can do. I'll start asking some people here if they would be interested in the final kit. Once the forum guys step up and You see how many are commited let me know. For now count me for 1 or 2 if it helps the numbers. If I have to I'll put My money where my mouth is to help get a good kit at a good price for all the H2 owners.
The only bad thing Jonahs, is now that Your not going to install it yourself, I was going to use that as an excuse to fly out and see You to help install it. I'll have to come out for another reason now and get to ride in it. Keep up the pressure. Let me know what to do to help.
TAZ

[HummerLV]

i may be in, but definately want more info on it.
keep me in mind LV

[HUMMERcustoms.com/TAZ]

Definetely wait and see what Jonahs gets done. This could be really great. Oh and do not be afraid of the temp on the system. Jonahs is absolutely correct in that the temp goes down in the pipe with 5 lbs. of boost, pipe acts just like an intercooler. If You go past that boost be looking at adding everything to increase fuel pumped to handle the inj. size increase to handle the increased boost, intercooler to handle temp etc. so it does not lean out and blow the top out of a piston, it all goes up when you pass 5lb. to 7lbs. of boost. More air more fuel is needed. Jonahs has the Dawes lights to watch His air/fuel, He has exhaust temp gage to watch that pipe temp, and installing a boost as well. He recommenned them to Me and My Dawes came today Jonahs for the info center You designed. I'm thinking about adding the tire monitor in after seeing how well everything fit in Your console. Jonahs would you remind Me and anyone else who may want the tire monitor where to get it at. I had it saved in favorites i thought. They will tell Him immediately if He goes towards lean. Knowing what is happening is very important and besides boost gauge I think the Dawes lights that Jonahs found is probably just as important. This STS works great like they desribe its use and does what they say it should. But like Jonahs told Me you need to be in a position to know if something changes. The INFO center solves that.
TAZ

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cougar2:
ditto DLEPEZ - I, too, was going to supercharge, however, I'm going to wait and see how your turbo turns out ... may go the turbo route instead ! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote...RLTAZH2 The kit for GM SUV is $4995 I think is latest price not sure </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for all your support & input TAZ. I think you have a typo here. THE KIT IS $3995 LESS ANY DISCOUNT I CAN GET US.

Least expensive place for the tire monitor is Vulcan Tire in Utah Vulcan

On other technical issues TAZ, I was speaking with Darren @ Dawes and he had some interesting info. On basic systems with like 5 lbs boost many times you don't even have to tune or change injectors. Just turn up fuel pressure. Of course it depends on what you want to accomplish. As you say there's a wide range of options from basic "wake it up" boost to screamers. The nice part about this system is you CAN just buy the kit, install it yourself in 5-6 hours & you're turbocharged for $3995. The most you might want to do is have someone put a scope on it & turn up the fuel pressure a little if needed. My Dawes gauges have already told me that at WOT in open loop H2s are really on the rich side.

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HummerLV:
i may be in, but definately want more info on it.
keep me in mind LV </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I'll put you on the list & since you're here in Vegas you're welcome to check mine out after it's installed.