2003 H2 Intermittently Starts

[Suzie]

2003 H2 vehicle history: At 12k miles key stuck in ignition, all lights dead. Had a bad windshield wiper module. Reno Winkel dealer replace, along with ignition switch.

Few months later, drain hoses replaced and re-routed on sunroof.

21k miles: transmission dies, gets replaced by Cerritos dealer.

38k miles: steering component parts replaced, along with all 4 shocks which were leaking and/or broken.

49k miles: New engine. Lost all oil pressure and died. Reno charged a whopping and excessive $3200 in labor, engine was courteousy of GM. Warrantee was through 36k miles.

Air conditioner quit working due to a seal that was not properly installed with the new engine. Repaired by honest and knowledgable local mechanic.

Lots of other little things took place, these are just some highlights.
CD player stops working. Back passenger side door pocket breaks off. OnStar never once works where system understands numbers, no matter who speaks into it.
Fan repair, making noise due to collection of pine needles in fan.

End of March 2007, off road lights installed with switches. Working great.

In Mexico 4wheel drive won't engage any longer.

Mid-May 2007 car won't start. No sounds when key is turned. Jumped it and it started...but in retrospect, may not have been the jump that started it.
Runs okay for a week, then parked for a week and again won't start. Jump doesn't get it going this time. Bought yellow top battery. Still won't start. Next day, it starts right up but has "REDUCED ENGINE POWER" dash message.
Driving power is reduced and noticably bad while driving it to Ontario.

Now it's Memorial weekend, put Hummer into Ontario (Mark Christopher) for problem.

While there, when key is not even in vehicle, back up lights go on by selves, inside lights go on...all while techs are climbing all over it.

They decide it needs a new battery, and claim that the yellow top battery is bad. We don't believe them, but let them put in new battery. Their battery goes down overnight. At 72k miles.

They also claim draw from off road lights is killing battery. Off road lights get disconnected (funny how they worked just fine for several months).

They also perform throttle body/air intake system service.
I tell them to charge my original battery and put it back in the vehicle and take their new battery off my bill. Bill still comes to $500. I return the yellow top, dealer claims it had a bad cell but never documented that. They claim the whole problem of intermittent starts was due to a draw from the off road lights.

Problem is that the intermittent starts continue. Also once in awhile continue to get the "reduced engine power" message.

In June, I take it to my local mechanic. He cannot get the car to NOT start while I am there. I go home, and pretty much park it for a month. It will start each time, but will take anywhere from 2-8 key turns before it fires up.
Except for when it gets the reduced engine power message, it runs just fine once started.
July 2007, try putting STP in tank in case water is in gas. Doesn't help.

August 2007, at 76k miles. Put into local garage. Mechanics are HONEST and knowledgable. I'm driving another car at this point, so he keeps it for 3 weeks. The problem doesn't show up often. He tries to get it to start with the 'reduced engine power' message and his scanner on the car nearly everyday. Sometimes the car starts, other times it takes up to 8 times to get it to start. It always does start, even if it sits an hour between attempts.

My mechanic is convinced there never was a battery issue. He thinks the throttle body had no problem and I was overcharged for what Ontario dealer did.

His scanner is a generic one used for various vehicles. Therefore, he is only able to get the code P1518-PCM (tac module serial data circuit). Starter is okay. He is 99.9% certain it is not the ignition switch. Starter relay okay. checked 'trans select switch for park and neutral signal ok.' "Checked PCM and tac module connectors and pins for corrosion, checked wiring for open circuit, none found at this time.'

'problem is very intermittent, suspect one of the modules. could not scan and check due to scanner incompatibility.'

So, with my very limited understanding, this is what I was told by my mechanic. There are two modules that fire up when the car is started. They communicate back and forth. One of them may be bad, or one or both of them need to be reprogrammed. He was told of a GM bulletin regarding the "reduced engine power' that says to reprogram the modules. To my knowledge this has never been done to my vehicle.

I explain all of this to dealer, even giving service writer a copy of my mechanics bill.

Of course, the car starts right up and doesn't fail starting for the first day. But they call and tell me it needs a new ignition switch and that will solve the problem. Hmmm

Another problem that appeared on my way to the dealer is that in a tight U-turn, the traction engages. And for months the 4wheel drive low light has been on, although it is not in 4x4 low. The dealer says it needs a 'decoder motor' for the transfer case. My mechanic did not check out this problem, but said it is possible that it is also a communications problem resulting from the modules.

I asked the service writer if a Hummer scanner was hooked up on the vehicle while a start was attempted. He did not know.

I suspect that they are just looking at my problems, and giving me their manual answers. They want over $500 for their two solutions. I am not convinced either one will actually fix the problems.

The speedometer also only works intermittently, but I know this is not related to the other problems.

I know this has been a really long post, and I apologize for that. But I figure the history might have something to do with the current problems. I'm just a 4wheeling gal, my Hummer actually gets used a lot from California on down into Baja. But I have to tell you, I often go alone and I'm starting to not trust my H2......love it dearly, love the way it handles offroad.. Just wish it would be dependable.

Any help will be greatly appreciately, especially as I have to give the service writer an answer Monday morning on what to do. He claims there is no bulletin for the reduced engine power problem. He claims that the ignition switch will fix the entire not starting problem, along with the reduced engine power message problem (which is real, not just a message, it does reduce power when the message appears).

Thank you!!!

[Hucky]

Damn,

I can only say, get rid of it!

Good Luck

You have been through enough

[Suzie]

You and at least twenty other people are telling me to get rid of it. It only has 77k miles. I kept thinking that with the new engine at 49k, and new transmission at 23k, that it was almost like a new car. But that has not panned out. I really enjoy driving my Hummer on and off road....when it runs.

But right now, whether I sell or keep it, I just need to get it fixed. And I have the Ontario Hummer dealer (who claimed it was a battery problem) and my personal mechanic telling me it is not the key ignition switch. Then I have the latest dealer, Cerritos, telling me it is the ignition switch. What to do? I do not feel they have bothered to do a proper diagnosis; I believe my local mechanic who says it likely needs to have the modules reprogramed, and perhaps one of the modules is bad and perhaps not, perhaps the reprogramming will fix the entire problem including the 4x4 low light always being on and the traction coming on in U-turns.

But Cerritos dealer's service writer is saying there is no such bullentin for "reduced engine power." I believe my local mechanic. He called a tech line run by an ex-Hummer mechanic.

Has anyone had a similiar problem or have any fix advice?

[HUMTECH]

With the service 4 wheel drive light were any codes found in t-case module? Sounds like the encoder motor sensor to me, not the entire encoder motor. As for the int no start, have the main ground checked from batt to engine block, seen many that were loose and caused this same problem.

[Hucky]

Originally Posted by Suzie

You and at least twenty other people are telling me to get rid of it. It only has 77k miles. I kept thinking that with the new engine at 49k, and new transmission at 23k, that it was almost like a new car. But that has not panned out. I really enjoy driving my Hummer on and off road....when it runs.

But right now, whether I sell or keep it, I just need to get it fixed. And I have the Ontario Hummer dealer (who claimed it was a battery problem) and my personal mechanic telling me it is not the key ignition switch. Then I have the latest dealer, Cerritos, telling me it is the ignition switch. What to do? I do not feel they have bothered to do a proper diagnosis; I believe my local mechanic who says it likely needs to have the modules reprogramed, and perhaps one of the modules is bad and perhaps not, perhaps the reprogramming will fix the entire problem including the 4x4 low light always being on and the traction coming on in U-turns.

But Cerritos dealer's service writer is saying there is no such bullentin for "reduced engine power." I believe my local mechanic. He called a tech line run by an ex-Hummer mechanic.

Has anyone had a similiar problem or have any fix advice?

Did you talk to Steve Devry at cerritos hummer service dept? Hes been very kind to me.

good luck

Hucky

[Suzie]

Thank you for your replies/help.

I asked my trusted local mechanic about checking the main ground from the battery to the engine block for a loose connection. He instantly said that is not the problem. If that were the problem, the car would not start at all.

Cerritos Hummer is sticking to their story that it is a faulty key ignition switch that is causing the problem. I finally told them to go ahead and replace it at their quoted price of $220. I do not believe this is causing the intermittent start problem. So I figure it will be another couple hundred tossed out the window on this same problem (already in for $700 and not fixed yet).

Update: Just got off the phone with an update. After recieving the okay to put in the not-needed new key ignition switch (I will eat dirt if I'm wrong), the service rep who IS Steve Devry, called to say when he started it to move it to GM down the street (not sure why I'm paying for Hummer and getting GM but he claims it doesn't matter)....the check engine light came on and the "REDUCED ENGINE POWER."

Sure am glad that perhaps they will now believe me, as they did not before. So I will write an update as this unfolds real time.

I also think Steve Devry is a nice enough person. I just wish he would return calls in a timely manner and LISTEN to the customer.

Why can't I take my car to a Hummer dealership and ask them to do the work I want done? I just want them to READ the GM Service Bulletin that states that intermittent starts can be corrected by reprogramming the PCM and TAC modules. I want them to at least consider this could be the problem.

As far as codes prior to today's start of the car, the codes that came up so far were 1518 (which my trusted mechanic already told me about) and 1875.

Devry said the 1518 is for the throttle body, that it is not getting 12 volts.
1875 is saying that the encoder motor is not working, according to Devry.

Does anyone out there know a really good mechanic at a Hummer dealership in southern California? I know someone mentioned a Mike S. at Tustin Hummer, but I am not familiar with any Hummer dealership in Tustin.

Thanks again for the help. I hope this thread hopes other Hummer owners that end up with the same problem.

[HUMTECH]

Subject:Intermittent No Crank, No Start (Clean Battery Side Terminal Stripped Threads, Replace Battery Cable Bolt) #02-06-04-015A - (03/07/2006)

Models:2001-2007 GM Passenger Cars and Light-Duty Trucks (Including Saturn)
2003-2007 HUMMER H2
2006-2007 HUMMER H3
2005-2007 Saab 9-7X
with Side-Mounted Battery Terminals

This bulletin is being revised to update the models and provide a new labor operation number for this repair. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Numbers 02-06-04-015 and 03-06-03-006A (Section 06 -- Engine/Propulsion System).
<A href="http://service.gm.com/servlets/BlobShtml?ShtmlFile=1777093&psdid=293&evc=sm#ss1-1777093">Condition

Some customers may comment on an intermittent no crank, no start condition.
<A href="http://service.gm.com/servlets/BlobShtml?ShtmlFile=1777093&psdid=293&evc=sm#ss2-1777093">Cause

This condition may be due to poor battery cable connections. Cross-threaded/stripped battery cable bolts inside the battery side post terminals may cause poor battery cable connections.
<A href="http://service.gm.com/servlets/BlobShtml?ShtmlFile=1777093&psdid=293&evc=sm#ss3-1777093">Correction

To avoid replacing the battery , do the following steps:

? Clean the threads in the battery side post terminals using a 3/8" (#16) NC bottom tap.
? Replace the battery cable bolt.

The battery cable bolt is serviced separately from the cable and is available from your Parts Department. Be sure to use the correct bolt.
<A href="http://service.gm.com/servlets/BlobShtml?ShtmlFile=1777093&psdid=293&evc=sm#ss4-1777093">Warranty Information

For vehicles repaired under warranty, use:
Labor Operation
Description
Labor Time
N9551*
Repair Battery Side Post Terminal Threads and Replace Cable Bolt
0.5 hr
*This is a unique labor operation for bulletin use only. It will not be published in the Labor Time Guide.
<A href="http://service.gm.com/servlets/BlobShtml?ShtmlFile=1777093&psdid=293&evc=sm#ss5-1777093">Warranty Information (Saab U.S. Models)

For vehicles repaired under warranty, use:

[Suzie]

Thanks Humtech for that input. I copied it and emailed it to the service rep.

Turns out the key ignition switch was not the problem.

The service rep suggested we just pay for it anyway and leave it in, even though the one in there was not bad. He said they go out all the time so it is a good idea to leave it in.

I believe now they want to put in a new throttle body module...for $460. Not sure if that is the right part and price, getting that verified. Will post tomorrow after I get an update.

Just hope I can get H2 back in time to get south for the Baja 1000. If not, I'll be stuck in a PT Cruiser. But at least it runs.

[tower]

Suzie,
I would try to get all my money back for the "fixes that weren't" and tell them that you will only pay for fixes from here on out that actually solve the problems. I suspect the Mike S to whom you refer is Mike Sabaresse. former Service Manager at Cerritos Hummer. He is the best! Unfortunately for Hummer owners, the H1 National Race Team has elected to pay him enough to race for them full time, so he is no longer at Cerritos Hummer.

[H2Finally]

A couple of days ago, the Tustin Hummer page in Google maps even mentioned the addition of Mike Sabbarese to their service dept. It's not there anymore, but here's a google cache mentioning the same. Again, no idea how Tustin service will do. But if you can get to speak & explain your problems to Mike personally, you'd have a fighting chance of finally fixing the problem, imho. Oh, and I'd keep calling rather than leaving a vm (Mike isn't that great at returning phone calls either).

[tower]

Originally Posted by H2Finally

A couple of days ago, the Tustin Hummer page in Google maps even mentioned the addition of Mike Sabbarese to their service dept. It's not there anymore, but here's a google cache mentioning the same. Again, no idea how Tustin service will do. But if you can get to speak & explain your problems to Mike personally, you'd have a fighting chance of finally fixing the problem, imho. Oh, and I'd keep calling rather than leaving a vm (Mike isn't that great at returning phone calls either).

Good catch, Horace! And to think that I bought that line of crap about him being hired away by the race team. Man, do I feel stupid! But thanks!

[HUMTECH]

I forgot to mention, if you are having an ignition switch problem(which is quite common) the tac module is fed from ign 1 power which feeds through the ign switch. Never seen an ign switch failure cause A reduced engine power problem but anything is possible. Also check that the throttle blade moves freely, remove the air intake hose and check by hand, may just need to be cleaned. If it binds at all it will set that code. Have your trusted mech also check pin grips and wiring to the tac module(remove any tape from harness and inspect harness) Any other questions feel free to ask. Hope it all works out for ya.

[Suzie]

Thanks so much for that google link! I was able to call Tustin Buick Pontaic GMC Hummer and verify that Mike Sabbarese is their Hummer specialist.

Thanks also for the other advice. I am going to pass it along to the Hummer service writer.

No updates today on service, the service writer said he will not be at work so I guess that means the mechanic can't do anything today either.

[Suzie]

Update: I located Mike Sabarese at Tustin Hummer (Calif). After just a few moments to talking with him, he said the problem is likely the same thing my trusted local mechanic said--a bad PCM module. He reiterated that it could not be the key ignition switch.

I am removing my vehicle from Cerritos Hummer today and taking it to Tustin to be repaired. As the dealers charge a minimum hour's labor for each item they check out whether you have them repair anything or not, I was told my charge would be around $200. That minimum charge gets applied to any work they do.

As they already replaced the ignition switch, despite my repeatedly, strongly telling them it was most likely not the problem, and the charge for that was $220, I told them to just leave it in. Might as well get something for my money. Told them I want the switch they took out, as nothing was wrong with it. Said I could use it if the new switch goes bad (ha, ha, ha).

The service writer called back and said the final charge would be $265. They are adding on one half hour of checking out the throttle body. Whatever. I am just glad to be getting it out of there for under a grand.
They still think the throttle body module is bad.

So now it will be off to the Tustin dealership, where I have faith that Mike S. will solve the true problem. I will update so stay tuned, especially if you having the same kind of intermittent problems/battery drains/reduced engine power message. 2003 Hummer H2. Oh, and THANKS for all the help and suggestions!

[Suzie]

Wow, what do you know? Mike Sabaresse at Tustin Hummer is having the PCM module replaced. And it appears to be under the emissions warrantee. I will update again when results are in. I am still shell shocked at what it took to get a Hummer dealership to finally consider what my local mechanic said was the problem all along.

As far as a new ignition switch....well, it never needed one. Now it has it's third one in 77,500 miles.

And that throttle body cleaning....well, it doesn't appear to have needed that. But at least it is clean now.

It will be interesting to see how many problems will clear up after the PCM module is replaced.

Oh, and Mike Sabaresse said he will be racing a white H1 in the Baja 1000, which I will watch for from a housetop in BOLA. (Now that it looks like my Hummer will be fixed in time.)

[dochummer]

I still don't get why you paid for all the xtras. I'd be pissed, and asking for my money back. Sounds like the mechanics were just giving you the run-around and milking you because they knew you'd pay...

[mdoyle]

I've been following this thread since I have a 2003 with very similar problems. Starting is intermittant and sometimes takes 3 tries. It doesn't matter how long you let it crank, it won't start until you cycle the switch again.

I'm going to investigate the emissions warranty on the PCM Module, but I just turned 100K so it might be too late.

[tower]

Suzie,

I'm glad it will all work out fo you. I knew Mike would hook you up!

[HUMTECH]

General Motors Warranty Coverage:

? For trucks with light duty or medium duty emissions:
- For 3 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first: If your vehicle fails a smog check inspection, GM will make all necessary repairs and adjustments to ensure that your vehicle passes the inspection. This is your vehicle emission control system performance warranty. If any emission related part on your vehicle is defective, GM will repair or replace it. This is your short-term emission defects warranty.
- For 7 years or 70,000 miles, whichever comes first: If an emission related part listed in this booklet specially noted with coverage for 7 years or 70,000 miles is defective, GM will repair or replace it. This is your long-term emission control system defects warranty.
- For 8 years or 80,000 miles, whichever comes first: If the catalytic converter or vehicle (powertrain) control module is found to be defective, GM will repair or replace it under the Federal Emission Control Warranty.
? For heavy duty gasoline engine vehicles, the emission warranty period is 5 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first.

Any authorized HUMMER dealer will, as necessary under these warranties, replace, repair, or adjust to General Motors specifications any genuine GM parts that affect emissions.
The applicable warranty period shall begin on the date the vehicle is delivered to the first retail purchaser or, if the vehicle is first placed in service as a demonstrator or company vehicle prior to sale at retail, on the date the vehicle is placed in such service.