Why Steve's winch BURNED

[Steve R]

So there ya go...

Clearly you can see that the negative wire is headed straight into the solenoid box AND the positive wire is (melted, scorched, elonngated)...but attaches to the ground of the winch motor.

Not GM's fault, Not Warn's fault.....just the guy who sold it to me. I won't say who he is....but he's a good guy and obviously just made a mistake.

All things considered, I got off easy. I need only to replace the one wire that melted on the winch and one wire that ran from the battery to the ground on the front bumper.

Hey guys...carry a fire extinguisher. If not for you, then perhaps for the other guy you see smokin' away on the road!

Now, let's never speak of this again!!!!

[Kevin B]

YIKES

[Hummer Man]

Steve, I am glad you got the true meaning of my POST.
You are obviously the most liked person on the forum. Your films are still talked about in circles far beyond this forum. Including some higher ups in the GM office.

However I am the most despised person on the forum. I have been accused of everything from having sex with animals to being gay to just plain being a pompous *******! Atleast one of those titles almost fits!
In the truest sense any attempt at an attack on you was only done to further lower everyones opinion of me!.

Finding fault with you was like calling Santa Claus a fake!

Best Regards!

[Steve R]

The winch I have is a model 9500. My buddy Rick tells me that it had to be modified to fit into that cradle/carriage and apparently the solenoid pack was re-mounted in its loction via a bracket. Bottom line, it's not stock...but it sure looked like it was.

The terminal on the bottom of the winch is quite large & beefy....it would seem that it was intended to have a large-size cable attached to it. This is where the negative comes in from the connector, while the postive comes right into the solenoid housing.

Meanwhile, inside the solenoid housing there is a definite place for the postiive to come into...but nothing apparent for the negative. I'm figuring the winch is intended to be wired in this manner....positive coming into the soldenoid housing and negative to the motor ground and then into the solenoid housing via the carriage. I don't have the manual.....I'm pretty sure Winchman will tell us.

As for the killer deal, yes....I got the winch, Garmin 5 GPS, PIAA headlights, roof rack, high-lift, tow straps, snatch-block, and other assorted goodies for a mere $750. All the stuff, recently bought new cost about $3,500.

I know the guy who sold it all to me, he's not dishonest like that. When I told him the winch burned he was in complete denial that he could have wired it wrong. He just made a mistake. Those connectors can have the terminals just slip out and be re-inserted....it could have been fixed in 30 seconds!

[Hummer Man]

DRTYFN, I think there are atleast three women on this FORUM that can atest the fact that I am ALL MAN!

Let's just leave it at that. I don't kiss and tell!

[Dan]

Steve, are you growing potatoes under that thumb nail??

Sorry about the electrical fire. I had a car burn to a crisp on the side of the highway once from an electrical fire that started under the dash. Not fun.

Maybe its time for one of those bling-bling chrome fire extinguishers on ebay.

- Dan

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SUT on order since 12/02 - 9 months to go!
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[Steve R]

and here is terminal F2 (make sure you see my next post on page 3 of this thread....that way you don't respond and only after realize there was another post)

[This message was edited by Steve R on 09-14-03 at 11:57 AM.]

[Hummer Man]

Hey Dan,

The best pics I have are the ones your wife sent me of her in various poses!

She mumbled something about your short-cummings! I could'nt tell what she was saying her mouth was full!

[Kevin B]

Hey Hummer Man

Alec got your goat . What's up with that? Your slipping

[WinchMan]

Thankfully, a passing motorist with a fire extinguisher and some quick thinking prevented a serious disaster.

The really important issues are, no injuries and minimal property damage. However, I've a problem with the failure analysis.

Reversed polarity of the quick-disconnect plugs and jacks is a contributing factor to the mishap, but the explanation of the short-circuit seems questionable, because--

Warn winch motor terminals are ISOLATED electrically from chassis ground; that is, neither winch motor terminal is permanently connected to "ground," or to the negative battery terminal.

This electrical isolation of the winch motor terminals can be tested; first, DISCONNECT both winch motor terminals; then, check continuity between chassis ground and each winch motor terminal with an ohm-meter; I think a proper system will show an open circuit. Or, with winch motor terminals disconnected, one may "jump" each winch motor terminal to battery positive voltage; no sparks, no motor rotation, nothing should happen.

The winch motor termninals must be isolated electrically from the chassis ground to permit the winch motor to reverse its direction of rotation when commanded "OUT" or "IN."

Thus, the explanation, "He [the previous owner] wired the winch polarity backwards and positive juice was flowing right into the ground/carriage of the winch," doesn't fit, entirely, as the cause of the short-circuit.

At rest, with the winch control switch in its neutral position, both winch motor terminals are shunted, connected together by the solenoid relays in the control box; the shunt provides "dynamic braking," applying an electrical load to a spinning winch motor when power is disconnected (the motor acts as an electrical generator when in this transitory state), reducing "coasting" of the moving system.

When connected properly, the winch motor terminals are shunted to the battery negative connection. If polarity of the power cables is reversed, both winch motor terminals would be connected to the positive battery connection when at rest. No problem, as long as the electrical isolation of the battery terminals from chassis ground does not break down.

The failure mode I suspect is: the quick-disconnect polarity was reversed, the winch motor terminal shunt connected both winch motor terminals to the positive battery terminals when at rest, and the electrical isolation of the winch motor terminals broke down, possibly as a result of mechanical shock from the dynamic G-loads the winch experienced when mounted to the moving vehicle.

When the electrical isolation of the winch motor terminals from chassis ground failed, a path for current from the winch motor terminals (both connected to battery positive voltage from the "backwards" quick-disconnect) to ground resulted in the short-circuit and the consequent fire.

The failure appears dynamic (breakdown of winch motor terminal electrical isolation), because otherwise, the short-circuit would have been constant; i.e., would have existed from the moment the winch was connected.

The, ". . . paint on both the carriage and H2 recepticle had kept things insulated well, but finally it contacted," hypothesis seems unlikely, because--numerous fasteners (e.g., bolts) have "naked" threads providing electrical continuity between the winch motor chassis and vehicle ground (the winch carriage is connected both physically and electrically to the vehicle frame through the receiver hitch and hitch pin, when mounted), these electrical paths would trump any paint-as-insulation, seems to me.

So, reversed polarity of the quick-disconnect plugs and jacks is a contributing factor to the malfunction; but, the immediate cause of the short-circuit appears to be a breakdown in winch motor terminal electrical isolation from chassis ground.

That's the way it looks to me; I welcome correction.

[Kevin B]

winchman, thats exactly what I thought too, Im just not a profecient typer, thanks

[Steve R]

Come on now....boots & H2's go together just fine!

(an oldie but a goodie)

[Steve R]

Here is my theory:

Ground/negative juice comes in through the connector and is brought directly to the winch motor housing and attached to the terminal "winch motor ground". The entire carriage is "lit-up" with negative juice and is common with the frame of the vehicle.

From there, the negative juice is picked-up in the solenoid housing where a wire likely runs from a ground into the solenoids. The solenoids also have positive juice coming into them as well. The solenoids then "dance" their connections (via the remote switch) to feed the winch motor juice in an according polarity to produce a pulling or pushing action.

The fact that the "A" terminal has a negative reading at rest would indicate that the positive is switched and would be fed to the F2 terminal when triggered. When the winch works in the opposite direction the solenoids act to lift the negative "off" terminal A and instead apply it to terminal F2..while at the same time applying positive juice to terminal A. Viola'

This all makes excellent sense to me, it follows. What do ya think???

While the winch motor is isolated electically from the chassis/carriage in order to move in both directions, the carriage is still negatively charged and grounded.

We're both right. right?

[DRTYFN]

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.
I never said anything about you being anything less than a total He-Man. Actually I was joking about you lecturing. Nothing malicious, I promise.

[Dan]

Desparation indeed! That's about 3rd grade level. Not bad from a NAMBLA member though...

- Dan

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SUT on order since 12/02 - 9 months to go!
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[Steve R]

Winchman,

No problem...I'd much perfer to be "corrected and know the truth" then to be "mistaken and THINK I know the truth". I welcome your interest and knowledge in this matter!!

I too had the very same thought. The winch motor has to operate in both diretions and thusly must have alternating polarity applied in order to accomplish an IN and OUT operation....a grounded-to-carriage conept seems odd.

So here's the deal: we're both right. I went out and checked....the two wires coming off the winch attach as follows:

One lead goes from the connector straight into the solenoid housing. The other lead goes straight to a terminal just under the winch motor which is labelled "Motor ground".

The terminal marked "motor ground" is in fact grounded to the entire carriage and consequently the ground of the vehicle. This was formerly where the positive power was being directly connected!!!!!! The previous owner had (moronically) run the + coming off the connector straight to the winch motor terminal marked "motor ground". It was a short-circuit for sure, only insulated by the paint of the cariage/recepticle.

I had assumed that the winch came wired by the Warn factory, and figuring that it worked fine for the previous owner...that it was in fine shape. As Gomer Pyle said: surprise, surprise, sur-Fin'prise!!

It absoultely was the case that the paint was the only factor isolating the juice from hitting the ground. Strange...yes, but once the paint wore away and solid contact was made...that's when she started smokin'.

The front bumper is apparently isolated from the ground/frame and there is a wire running from the negative battery terminal going straight down and connecting to the front bumper itself. This wire, probably about #10 in size, got so hot that it glowed red and before breaking lit the insulation on fire!

Now...here's what I also noticed. There are 2 wires (besides the motor ground) going into the winch motor housing. One is marked F2 and the other marked A. I suspect it's much like the wiring of a PIAA lamp where there is a low-beam and a high-beam: One negative and two inputs for positive. Maybe you can shed some light on this. To aid...here are some pics. I suspect the previous owner, who has still yet to contact me....completely screwed up the wiring and got it drastically wrong.

The flash of the camera alomst has the label un-readable, but the terminal is the winch motor ground and this is where one of the wires feeds in.

[SOFTTAILJC]

SANTA IS FAKE?????????****, THERE GO MY NEW RIMS.......

[Kevin B]

Steve,

Is your winch a XD9000i? (hard to tell from the pictures) If so I have the same winch and it came from the factory fully wired and the only connections I had to make were to power the leads. With that in mind I can't imagine why someone would mess with the wiring to the solenoids is kind of scary.

I remember you describing the "killer" deal a couple of months ago you got for all the stuff but you might want to check it out!

Long ago I had a gf who would wake me up in the middle of the night, more like early morning (2 and 3 AM.) doing housework. I have also known guys who would stay up all night (actually days) taking things apart because they cant sleep or sit still, get my drift? I wonder if that might have something to do with it. Anyway something about the story just doesn't add up.

I may be mistaken but I dont think the purpose of the conector is to "isolate" as much as it is to insure a clean power supply to the winch. my 02$

[Steve R]

Ya gotta love this forum.....

I truly believe the individual who goes by the name "Hummer Man" was whole-heartedly just trying to convey some mindful information. He's right....tweak the rig and go to jail. It's not fair to expect the insurance to pay for the incompetance of someone's custom work should it go wrong. I don't feel he was chastizing me or finding fault.

But dude....at least 3 women can attest to your being all man???? Now that pretty much sunk what little credibility you may have had. We don't even have 3 women on this forum to start with. I can't believe DRTYFN didn't torch you to cinders!

Allow me to cast some illumination on the winch subject. Yes...I did purchase it used. I was under the impression that the winch came complete and was an item purchased from a shop.

The reality of the situation is that the winch motor and solenoid controller were bought from Warn, a company made a carriage to hold the winch...and the owner himself apparently wired the thing up.

I never suspected the former owner wired it himself.....it looked as though it came out of a large crate and came wired from the Warn factory. It seemed stock and OEM.

Ironically he kept the winch strapped in his truck and only used it occassionally. During his occassional use he never rubbed enough paint off the carriage or H2's receptical to conduct the short-circuit.

Even though the polarity was switched, he apparently never noticed that the direction of pull/let-out was reversed on the hand-remote. So it worked for him and he expressed that it worked fine.

So there ya go, being that it worked fine for him AND that it looked completely Warn-factory original wiring....it 'ELUDED' me.

Now here's the dumb part. Being that I had no idea that the former owner wired the thing...I called him and left a messgae telling him about how I need to go after the dumbF**k who wired it wrong. He was less then amused by the profantic reference and just denied that it could be that case.

I explained that I wired my entire house, every outlet, switch, recessed light, alarm system, etc, etc and that I've designed electrical circuits. So he replies: "that's A/C current....D/C is different. Okay

I told him I had pics that show that he wired the + wire directly to the winches motor. He challenged me to send him the pics. No apologies, no regret, no regard for nearly torching my H2 to the ground. That's just him. He's still a good guy.

In the end, I cut-back the molten part and the connector wires fit easier now. The one wire the melted & burned did little damage because we hit it with an extinguisher real quick. I've replaced that wire and everything is basically fine.

Bottom line: I got off way lucky. Electrical fires are usually devastating!

Lesson learned: always have a fire extinguisher on hand, if not for you, then the other guy!

Oh yeah...and always second-guess anything you buy used...even if it seeems new out of the box....you just may get burned