EATON FRONT E-LOCKER

[Mike97ZJ]

Well, I think the only way to settle it is for one of you guys to grab your socket set and crawl under there and unbolt that swaybar.

But first, find some kind of obstacle you can climb up with one front wheel to test your travel. Climb up as far as you can before a rear wheel lifts, then take a picture. Either that, or place a rear tire on it and back up the obstacle.

Go back home, unbolt the swaybar, and then go do it again and take another pic.

Doesn't have to be offroad. A good sized rock, the edge of a culvert, even the edge of a loading dock ramp will work.


Steve... I'm happy to share any info that I have on the SFA thing. I was just kidding you about the debate thing. I just don't want to go spouting off about the SFA and come off like I'm trying to be superior or anything.

And I know you didn't design the truck, but there's no reason you can't defend it or be proud of it.

I agree with you about the geared hubs. It would have been really cool if the H2 had them up front, along with a solid rear axle. They actually make straight axles with hubs like that, now THAT would be really cool, to have those bad boys front and rear.

Don.....As far as that swaybar, the thing that I noticed is that it looks pretty vulnerable bolted below the axle like that. My shock mounts hang down below the axle in much the same way, and I've nailed them pretty good on rocks. The shock mounts are pretty beefy, much more beefy than the way that sway is attached. I figure you got 6k lbs of Hummer moving forward and a rock snags just the bar, you're likely to shear it right off if you hit it hard enough.

I guess it depends on the wheeling you do. Around here, we have a lot of stumps and things like that in addition to rocks. One time I thought I cleared a log in the trail, but I ended up with it wedged underneath my t-case skidplate. I had to rock it back and forth a bit to free it.

Oh well, that's enough for now. I'm off to my welding class.

You know, I really love these tech discussions.

Maybe we ought to get our own forum, LOL.

[Mike97ZJ]

I got the QD's from Dirk at www.dpgoffroad.com

Great guy to do business with.

He carries the complete line of JKS products at great prices. He mainly deals in Jeep stuff though.

Not sure of the JKS address, but I think there is a link to it off of the DPG site.

[Steve R]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike97ZJ:
Maybe you ought to teach your friends how to drive! And yeah, have you friends take more pics. I'd like to see some of your truck in the rocks. Maybe you guys ought to bring along an extra person next time just to be cameraman.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As for teaching friends, you'd think so...but that particular truck was being guided by the guy who pre-ran the trail and he was letting his girlfriend drive it. Two spotters are like two cooks in the kitchen (sometimes).

We did bring a photographer...no idea what happened with/to him. We crossed the river and the rocks were just as you got out....so he was stuck on the other side.

Mike...can you use BTM on a jeep? I was told elsewhere that BTM only works with torsen differentials and that standard diff's don't really work/respond well to btm?

[Mike97ZJ]

Actually Steve, it sounds like you know exactly what you are doing. That's how you want to drive over rocks, slow and controlled.

When you hit that stuff hard and lurch over things, you can break stuff when you come crashing back down.

It's all about the finese. It takes more skill to creep over something gently than it does to hammer the throttle and use momentum.

I obviously don't have any experience with it, but I've read in a few magazines that the front traction control takes to much wheelspin (in thier opinion) before it kicks in.

You don't want alot of wheelspin in the rocks. When a spinning tire catches traction, again, that's when you can break stuff.

I think using your technique and driving slow is more of a help than that front traction control would be. It's okay to lift a front tire once in a while, as long as you have those two rears pushing you and you make sure you come back down to earth slowly, no harm done.

[Hummie2]

Steve...

According to what I have read on trac control it should have enough power to pull a 10% grade with only one wheel, but I don't know if that is with or without the aid of the locker. I feel your assumption that only the front axle would be in trac control mode, if the transfercase and rear axle were locked, is correct, but sometimes GM does some really weird stuff with their computer controls and they seem to go against comon sense until you read the theory of operation in the shop manual ( but we have no shop manuals yet).

Whenever we are able to get a locker for the front axle we will truly have All Wheel Drive.

Now think about this for awhile and let me know your thoughts: Do you want to tie the front axle control in with the rear axle control or do you want to keep the controls seperate. With the controls seperate you could select rear, front or both, but tying them togather would probably simplify the installation wiring somewhat.

Don

[Mike97ZJ]

Sounds good!

Maybe you ought to teach your friends how to drive!

I'm sure they'd appreciate the pointers.

I know the feeling of having no idea of what's in front of you. It's good to have a spotter you trust. If I don't have a spotter, what I do is pick a line that will put my driver's side tires on the majority of rocks. I can see my front tire if I hang my head out the window a bit, so this minimizes my chances of running into stuff.

Also, I adjust my power mirrors so that I can see the ground and back tires with them. That way I can keep an eye on what the back of the vehicle is doing.

And yeah, have you friends take more pics. I'd like to see some of your truck in the rocks. Maybe you guys ought to bring along an extra person next time just to be cameraman.

[Hummie2]

Gray...

The E-Locker is what we have in the rear axle instead of a posi-traction. When we push the button on the dash for the locker it locks both the right side and left side rear axles togather making them both turn as one unit. As long as there is one wheel with traction the vehicle will move. Our H2s can only lock the rear E-Locker while they are in 4low lock transfercase mode, otherwise the rear axle is in open mode and functions like a open differential.

In the near future a E-Locker should be available for our front axles.

Don

[Mike97ZJ]

That's great news. That E-Locker looks to be about the best thing since sliced bread, lol.


All the advantages of the ARB, except you don't have to worry about a compresor or the air lines getting ripped out.

An H2 locked at both ends would go just about anywhere! I've seen rigs with dual lockers do some truly amazing things.

I'd like to get one for the rear of my Jeep, but I hate to spend the money on a Dana 35, I really don't think it would hold up.

[H2 TOIE]

i saw them yesterday to now there gone so its not you


Dan

[Hummie2]

Mike...

Words just can't do a locker justice. I have personally been places in my old CJ5s in 2wd with rear axle locked (my front driveshaft was out and laying on the floor of shop) that my buddy couldn't go in 4wd with open differentials. We were playing on some dirt piles and in one spot we could get one front wheel and one rear wheel in the air. I could go right through in 2wd no problem, but as soon as he got one wheel on each end in the air in 4wd he was stuck.

Those Dana 35s are little light, but 44s front and rear locked might be awesome. Who knows might be the start of a Grand Cherokee version of a Rubicon there.

Don

[Steve R]

DAMN GOOD SCHTUFF GUYS!!!

Just so ya know...the two of you are my favorite technical guys when it comes to knowing about 4x4 mechanics (I'd say collectively we rule the roost on this forum).

My thoughts are this: I will DEFINITELY get a rear-locker as soon as a good/reliable one is made available, and I will wait for the E-locker for sure!!! ARB is like 8-track/beta.

As far as switches, definitely seperate controls for each individual locker. I've been told, and to some degree have experienced the lack of steering when you have front & rear lockers on. You lose about 15% good steering with the rear locker on....but when you activate a front locker you lose about 75% your ability to steer well. Definitely gotta have seperate controls and use front-locker sparingly for certain special situations that only demand it. Anyways.....

Here's my thought on the traction control and the rear-end. The traction control works similar to anti-lock braking (but in reverse): it modulates braking to the free-spinning wheel...it inhibits all the torque from going to that one loose wheel. By stopping that free-spinning wheel from turning, the torque is redirected to the wheel on the opposite side.

(sidenote; the Range Rover has an amazing traction control system...the moment a tire looses contact with the ground, the brake is applied to that wheel causing the opposing wheel to keep turning faithfully...it's impressive)

Now, if we lock-up (E-locker) the rear-end you basically have one solid axle. The braking of one wheel ENTIRELY effects the other wheel...because each wheel is essentially now attached to the same axle. You can't individually brake each rear wheel AND for that matter the computer can not distinguish which wheel is slipping: each wheel moves 100% consistent with the other. THEREFORE it stands to reason that the traction control (at least for the rear section) MUST be turned OFF when the rear is locked!

I'd like to think the front-end still has a traction control system working....but who knows???? I did see my air-tire spinning freely while the other sat on the rock. I think that is what happened at least.

This makes me want to take some car jacks and play around in the driveway!!!!

Any thoughts gentlemen?????

As you know, when you have an open differential and one tire is free-spinning (in the air per se)...the other tire not only turns...but rotates at twice the speed of normal

[Steve R]

THANKS DON!!!!!

I really appreciate the info. I think I'll end up adding the front locker. I'm almost certain the newer H2's will likely come with it anyways....especially seeing as Jeep & Mercedes have it on some of their models, and I hear there will be a new VW that may also come stock with front & rear locker. Seems to me Hummer should have it if any vehicle has it. I was shocked to find the H1 didn't come with them and that our H2's didn't have front lockers either.

Can anyone explain this: we had just crossed a nice stream and were coming out of the river when we came upon a "rock garden"..lots of boulders that looked forbidding. I proceeded to get into this field of rocks and was being guided through. I had the rear suspension up, the transfer case in 4Lo-locked, and the rear locker on. When the front end had one tire in the air.....the tire in the air would spin...which is fine for an open-differetial...but isn't the traction control supposed to come on and stop that free-spinning wheel and divert power to the traction wheel??? I'm starting to get the feeling that when the e-locker is "on"...the traction control system is off!!??

I can understand turning off traction control to the rear axle/tires...but is the front on or off??? cause we were spinning both rear tires and one front tire in the air. That ain't right???

[JJ]

Hey guys, hope you don't mind me butting in.....I have an ignorant question to ask you. I've been asked twice now if our H2s have independent 4-wheel drive. After following you guys in this thread and some of the others I have a much better understanding of some of the mechanical stuff - IFS, SFA, and all the off-road driving modes.. But what is independent 4-wheel drive? If there is independent 4-wheel drive then if would reason that there must be dependent 4-wheel drive???

JJ

[Hummie2]

GOOD EXPLANATION THERE STEVE!

Its nice to be able to talk with people that have a good mechanical knowlege of the vehicles they drive. I have been very IMPRESSED by the amount of information presented on this forum. Thanks Jason for making it available for everyone.

I think Steve meant he will get a Front Locker folks as we already have the rear locker from the factory.

I too wan't each locker on seperate controls for all the reasons both you guys described above.

At first I wasn't too keen on the idea that GM had setteled on the idea that the computer could DICTATE to ME that our rear lockers could only be used in "4Low Lock", but I understand why they did it. They did not want any liabilaty issue that might arise from a vehicle at speed that might not have complete control of its steering. For a novice to lockers a vehicle that tends to plow straight ahead when the steering wheel is turned might be disaster just waiting to happen, so therefore the locker in our H2s is limited to 4 Low Lock only. Also another thing about a Locker is it's tendency to "side slip" when both wheels are spinning on a really slippery surface like ice. Having the rear end of a rig "spinout" sideways instead of going straight can really suprise someone if they are not expecting it ( its something you have to experience a few times before you aquire that "Seat of the Pants" feel for when driving with a Locker ).

Steve let us know what you find out when you get done playing with yours in the driveway.

One thing for certain the H2 with it's Anti Skid/Traction Controls for when it's at speed and Locked on both Front and Rear Axle for low speed crawling would be one of the best things going on four wheels.

Don

[Hummie2]

JJ...
The only ignorant question is the question that is not asked. Feel free to ask anytime, we will do our best to answer.

IFS means Independent Front Suspension (which H2 has). SFA stands for Solid Front Axle ( like on Mike's Jeep Cherokee).

Here is a pic of the H2 IFS. You can see the front "A" arms and front torsion bar in red in this photo.

[Steve R]

Well....I suppose it's only proper to welcome JJ and Buddy to what has become the premier tech-thread on this forum. It's all good (so long as JJ doesn't go nuts over the air compressor issue...sheesh).

Mike....I'm not trying to drag you into an SFA/IFS debate or anything, I'm seriously just fascinated by the technical merits of each. I don't really think of things in terms of opinions...we just study facts and support conclusions.

I sincerely appreciate the education on the subject matter. At present, my thought is that GM should have given the H2 either the H1's gear-driven hubs for awesome clearance OR have gone with an SFA...and that's what I'll be telling the reps and others! And when someone asks why GM didn't use SFA....I'll also know that it wasn't part of their existing parts bin.

What it comes down to is this: I didn't design, engineer or build the H2....I merely laid down the cash for it. I have no 'defensive ego' to protect in supporting the thing. It is what it is and I'm open to knowing/understanding both the strong points as well as the weak. With that said....Jeeps suck!!! (kidding)

Don, the air suspension is actually pretty cool. Not only does it offer all the cool sounds of the air-release occassionally, but it does jack the back up for additional clearance...that clearance DID make a difference over that rock-garden as compared to rigs that didn't have it! GM typically just calls the feature "auto-ride", but by adding a switch and sensor, they were able to allow it to be used also as a height control.

Sway-bars....yeah, I see them hanging down and wonder why they did that. Oh well....could removing them while offroading really make that much a difference? I can see how it would allow each wheel to be more independent....but by how much?

I became friends with Tom Cepek (son of Dick Cepek). He's working on a suspesion system where shocks can actually follow the terrain and the computer can make adjustments. We've all seen those old cruiser-cars that hop and move around....well, he's going to have some kind of deal where each wheel can be manipulated. Imagine running a side-slope and still being level inside the vehicle. The computer could totally raise one wheel and fully extend the other (better then simulating SFA). Course...this is in the works AND will be costly....but the future is indeed interesting.

Anyways..that's long enough a post. And Mike....which chrome grille guard is better and who makes the best 20" wheels??

[Hummie2]

Guys...

That is what is so Great about the H2. We have so many choices of options from the factory " do you wan't air suspension with that or standard?" not just color, fabric, or stereo choices. Presently to get the height adjust feature with a standard coil suspension I would have to go with a aftermarket air shock similar to what is on a Escalade or Tahoe from the factory. Tom Cepek's suspension might be the "Hot Ticket" when it becomes available.

One thing that is not obvious in the picture I posted above is that the sway bar does not protrude out any farther than what the tire does and therefore does Not affect the H2's angle of departure. The only place the bar might get hit would be in the "Rock Gardens". Only way to find out whether disconnecting the sway bar will help axle articulation is do a "Ramp Index" with it connected and disco'ed and see how much the numbers change.

Steve... over in the General Discussion sec. I posted a picture of the rear bumper height of my standard coils in the "Headlight Setting.. a Theory" thread. Mine measured 35 3/8 inches to top of rear bumper. If you find time can you measure your bumber height as I did in the picture with your H2 at both "normal" and "lifted" ride height settings and post the measurements. It might be interesting to compare apples to oranges for the people here to see how the two suspensions differ from each other. I do know that they use different rear shocks on each of them.

Don

[Hummie2]

Here is a pic of the rear sway setup that I took of the display @ Houston Auto Show. Those JKS QDs might adapt pretty easy to the H2s rear sway Mike.

Steve check the pics of Safe Guard film in the scratch removal posts. Its expensive but probably cheaper than a new paint job.

[Hummie2]

YEP...

Your right JJ. The H1 has 4 Wheel Independent Suspension. The first H2 prototype had 4 Wheel Independent Suspension as well but was changed to IFS with Solid Rear Axle when the H2 went into production.

One more shot of the frame display. This view shows the electric shifter motor (black thing with the wire harness on it) on the left side of transfercase. The small black thing with wire harness at top center above driveshaft is the speedo sensor.

[This message was edited by Hummie2 on January 26, 2003 at 12:16 AM.]

[TonkaH2]

BTW, guys, I am screwed on changing horses in mid-stream, so to speak. So I guess I'll be stress-testing the air-suspension as much as possible through the states.

I have been looking under my buddies' '2, and there's a lot to snag on behind the engine. I need to get full skidplate protection under the exhaust, drive-shaft, etc. So I'll be a guinea-pig for getting that stuff made, I guess. If anybody hears of a company working on it, let us know.

-Jack
Yellow H2 adv. on order [forever]
Alaska to ??? June '03
www.sunspotnatural.com