Rubicon VS H2

[Allen]

Ok, I just read March edition of JP magazine...H2 get trashed by the writer of JP magazine. They say Rubicon wins in hill climbing ability, handling, price. H2 wins in sand because of the powerful engine. Any thoughts? Has anyone 4 wheeled with a Ruby yet? if so, how did the H2 do. I know this must be a biased article.

[DennisAJC]

Rubicon is an excellent off-roader.
Just not enough room for gear and people.

Rubicon is great for the off-road world.

H2 will get you the best of all worlds.

Still both have their strong points.

[H2Norcal]

Whatever.

I suggest we get that 750HP bohemoth Ernie keeps pushing in Florida and we will show them how you move a box car up a hill climb.....

Wait, let me get my camera first.

[NSXTC]

Read the same article. What do you expect from a Jeep magazine? They'll thrash everything that's out there except for the Jeep. It's not called Motor Trend or Car or something generic. It's call JP for Jeep Performance. Hence the bias opinion. There was a test with H1 vs. Rubicon and guess who else also won? You tell me that a Jeep can beat an H1?

[muskyman]

the rubicon will beat the H2 in most all off road conditions. its a great truck and the product of 65years of evolution .

in sand its more then power that gives the H2 the edge...sand is a very specific condition. it takes power, wheelbase, and a low amount surface pressure under the traction pad.

the bfg at has been known for years as a great sand tire . the large size stock on the H2 reduces its surface pressure enough that it does well.

if it had MT's it would not do near as well

[Steve R]

I won't deny that the Rubiclown is very capable, but your not comparing apples to apples: that rig is truly in a different class.

I've said it before; we had a modified Jeep with us when we ran the 2N17X...it was raised, had a rear locker, large tires and lots of goodies. That Jeep had run the Rubicon and the driver was both aggressive and experienced.

When we came to that big nasty hill the H1's went up it, had some trouble...but just slammed through. The H2 easily went about 80% up the hill and could not get past one point due to a crater-sized rut.

The Jeep really failed to impress me: it almost immediately was spinning wheels and having traction issues. Despite his repeated attempts and aggressiveness borderlining breakage...he never made it more then 50% the ways up.

The Rubi does have a front locker and such a thing would have helped. But heck...it's just a matter of months before the E-locker is available for us to add to our front-end: that will make us unstoppable!

Getting back to the nasty hill: the stock H2 outperformed the bad-ass modified Jeep hands down. I'm not going to argue what I and my group witnessed: that's what happened.

And in closing, allow me to show you something the Rubiclown will never do: carry all three of my babies AND all our gear for a weekend:

[Spidey]

Congratulations Steve -- judging by all those kids you do more then just mud flinging eh !!
They don't appear to share Dads 4 wheeling passion. Tell me is that twins I see, if so from who's side do they run ?? I'm betting yours.

[Steve R]

Hey Spidey....

I fling mud only when mud is flung at me first. I guess I'm just a bit too passionate about the Hummer H2 and have a low threshold/tolerance for abusive words from those who would attack our fine rig. I'll try to mellow...but we all know that isn't likely going to happen.

Your looking at my 3 year-old Elana and our 10 month-old twins, Zoe and Emily....they are in fact indentical twins. Identical twins are not the result of two eggs coming down and both being fertilized, but rather the result of the embryo splitting (hench the indentical nature)...this is a rare thing and is not intrinsic to any hereditary issue.

I have my own theories on how I managed this...but my wife would not appreciate me discussing such matters, nor would the forum likely want to hear about it!!!

What you can be certain of is how safe we feel driving through the mountains with ice & snow during the night in near solid cloud-cover: The H2 is so sure-footed and strong....I wouldn't trust any other vehicle: DAMN I LOVE THIS RIG!!!!!

[DennisAJC]

The best of both worlds......

[Mike97ZJ]

The Rubicon is the most cable four wheel drive you can buy off of the showroom floor. Period.

It's not a commuter vehicle, it's not a family vehicle. It's made for offroad, and that's where it shines.

Granted the two vehicles are in a different class, but the Rubi will scramble up and over things a Hummer couldn't even get a tire on.

Incidently, Four Wheeler magazine did a "Ultimate Four Wheel Drive' article about two years ago. They compared a H1, TJ Wrangler, Range Rover 4.6, and the Toyota Tacoma TRD.

Results were:

1. Tacoma TRD (by virtue of rear e-locker)
2. Wrangler
3. H1 (they actually rolled it in the dunes!)
4. Rover

They got TONS of hate mail on that test.

[muskyman]

Steve,

you are correct the H2 and rubicon are in a defferent class, the rubi is really a 2 person and some gear truck meant just for off-road enthusiasts

I believe you took my above post as a bash on the H2. It was not in any way. It was a response based on what a number of testers agree with in the 4wheel drive world.

The Jeep you spoke of was not a Rubicon so you are correct when you say apples to apples. All jeeps are by far not equal.

You said the 1 jeep you have seen was raised and had large aggressive tires.

When you lift/raise a vehicle you then raise the center of gravity.

When you add larger tires you also raise the center of gravity

That combination of modifications that raise the center of gravity on a short wheelbase most often reduce a vehicles hill climbing ability do to a increased weight transfer to the rear wheels.

I would also wonder about the drivers skill level by your description of the aggressive driving style.

Good drivers are smooth and graceful . you rarely get the feeling they are being aggressive. More often then not you watch them and they tip toe thru things by choosing the correct line and the correct locations to apply power

The hill you describe brings back many memories for me. Steep hills in relatively soft terrain vary often end up looking the same way. The passage of vehicles causes a rut to develop at the top. Rain and erosion then work on the rut in combination with trail traffic to make a rut that sucks in a vehicle causing it not to be able to pass it easily.

The proper technique to pass these locations is a combination of steps. These hills very often are soft on the bottom. This is a result of the material from the rut being flushed out and down to the bottom of the hill this part of the climb often needs to be a smooth acceleration thru the soft area on a line that aims at the higher of the two sides of the rut. As you reach the rut you need to roll of the throttle and steer across the rut. As your first tire crosses the rut you need to counter steer back into the rut using the vehicles weight against the first tire across to hold the other front tire on the other side. From this point you are straddling the rut and as you continue up the rear tire on the side of the first tire across will unweight and lift due to weight transfer. During this moment you need to avoid aggressive application of power because or it will make your other rear tire break traction and slide down the slope into the rut. By keeping your rear tireon the slope its most often a high traction climb to the top because the two high slopes will have good traction because they wont be weakened by erosion due to the fact all the area water runs down the trench.

In areas where the trench has eroded to a point its to wide to straddle the lower side of the slope will almost always have a area large enough to hold the vehicle to small to straddle it. In this case you then continue across it and the second front tire across will be the tire lifted. Once again avoid large amounts of acceleration during the moment of a lifted tire due to the fact that power will cause side slip that will slide you into the trench.


Driving tactical trails is a thinking mans game. Time and experience combined with a true knowledge of your vehicles strengths and weaknesses is what the key is

Case in point: Back in the mid 70’s Malcome Smith noted world champion cross country motor cycle racer and Jackie Stewart where hosting the “widow maker” hill climb on ABC sports. After 2 hours of watching every kind of cycle fail to make the climb. Including huge power paddle wheeled specialty bikes made just for that purpose. Jackie Stewart started goating Malcome into trying it. Malcome was astonished that nobody could drive up a hill that had so many places of good traction. Well TV being what it was back then Malcome put on his duds and got on one of his cross country racing Husquvarna’s he rode slowly to the base of the hill and started up in a very controlled graceful manner he drove close to bushes and foliage where roots systems hold the ground tight. He blasted rooster tails across a couple soft sandy stretches.he used momentum to jump the two or so ridges that stopped all the other riders and made the top in a very graceful well thought out manner.

That’s what off road is about!

Peace

thom

[Mike97ZJ]

Well said, Musky.

I agree with you totally, it's all about driving elegant, as Granville King used to say.

[SJ]

In short summary - the Wrangler Rubicon is sweet! I sat in one at the local Auto Show and it's all about giving you what most 4 x 4 enthusiasts want without all the extra frills that add to the price tag.

The only knocks that I've read or heard are in regards to clearance. Some trail runs resulted in the gas tank being dented by rocks, but nothing a mild lift can't cure.

I finally saw a nice blue one on the road and Jeep will sell every single unit they can build.

[Mike97ZJ]

Hell yeah. All the Rubi needs is a mild lift and 33"-35" tires. Stock Jeeps ARE too low.

But since lifts for them are cheap and easy, no biggie. The aftermarket makes better stuff anyway.

[SOCAL XMER]

I like both the Rubi and the Hummer and I am waiting for the H3 to see what it will be like.
I really need the room that the Rubi just can't offer. I often wonder how a Rubi would have done on the hill we were on and if the Jeeper had more feness could he have made it.
I can tell you it was hard to find traction on that hill and it did demand alot of driver skill to get up it.
I think if the H2 had more agressive tires or a front locker it would have made it up, needless to say it was a serious challange and that is what off roading is all about.

future H2 or H3 owner

[muskyman]

socal,

dont be so fast at getting "more aggresive" tires.

tires get there traction from the grooves across the face not the deapth of the grooves

deep grooves and large voids improve cleaning of the tread .but because the have far less cross grooves they sacrifice traction for that cleaning.

in many situations such as sand,loose dirt, or slick surfaces like ice or snow covered roads a AT(all terrain) tread will far outperform a MT(mud terrain)

the guys with the mud terrains will argue with that but they will also be wrong

what happens is the aggresive tire digs deep but lacks the cross grooves that provide the traction so the tire looses traction and starts digging the hole it then gets stuck in.

the only times MT's have the edge is when a AT tread gets clogged and wont clean itself,or when you are rock climbing and the large voids allow the rocks to to get deep enough into the voids to allow enough mechanical contact that the vehicle lifts itself without tire spin.

MM

Musky:the thinking mans fish

Dirt is for playing roads are for getting there

[brianfriend]

Very true about the tires. Agressive tread will dig the hole. In snow and wet applications the tred on an aggressive tire will scare you. I use aggressive tires because I drive a lot of rocks but on the road or wet rocks it can be scary.

If it can break it can be fixed.

[Steve R]

Muskyman,

Okay...it's official: you're IT. From the Jeeper attack we picked up Mike and from the Rover attack it'll be you. From your expressive writing and informative material....I'd have to say you'll be well received and appreciated on the list. It is my sincere hope that you stick around and contribute. I know Mike has proven an outstanding asset. And if you have nothing else to say...just follow up any of my post with an "Amen"...it drives certain people nuts!! If you really score high they may even call you my sidekick...but lets not get too excited just yet.

You're all right: offroading is having fun with vehicles in the outdoors. Why should a brand name preclude anything??? Especially since none of us designed, built, engineered or created these toys: we just blew some coin and accessorized them.

The hill to which I made regard to was a nasty critter. You are very correct in your description: years of use have eroded the thing into something the Sierra Club would love to photograph. There really is nothing more then a channel in the ground leading upwards! There are no "lines" to follow or choices to make...you simply have two options....head forward or reverse downward. Sad but true.

The Jeep was a winner...it was completely set up with experience and done for ultimate performance (overall). It ran the Rubicon, and when the experienced driver exhuasted his finess...he turned to the last resort: aggressiveness. Maybe it just wasn't the right trail or conditions...you know how that can be. It just wasnt' a Jeep hill. A front locker would have made ALL the difference.

The Rubicon is a nice machine, perfect for two people and some gear...but I would argue about it being the most capable...especially over the H1. I've seen an H1 flip at Gorman....it happens. An H1 driver needs experience, the H1 does not come with lockers front or rear! They use BTM with their unique Torsen Differentials. I'm certain the H1 that failed the test was driven by some typical guy who just climbed behind the wheel and pushed the gas pedal. You have to work an H1 and have thorough experience to make it effective.

The H1's clearance, complete underbelly skidplate and other features make it the very best offroad vehicle bar-none. The Rubicon is more prone to rolling, has differentials and various stuff to get caught on under the chassis and suffers from serious transmission problems. I've been told it's a great rockcrawler..but that's it.

I believe there are more places a Rubicon could not follow an H1 then there are places an H1 could not follow a Rubicon. Geometry will vary, so each has their strong-points and areas they favor.

Wanna laugh? What I'm told is lethally effective...of all things...is a Suzuki that has front & rear lockers, Dana axles for greater width/stability and larger tires. Oh my lord are those things nimble and effective.

Each of our vehicles shine in different areas. It is truly futile to argue.

Here's a pic of that hill.

[Steve R]

As you can see....the trail is like the letter "W"....tires have not only worn a rut down each left and right side...but have left a huge mound in the center. This is where the gear-driven hubs of the H1 truly shine!!!!

I know you'll hate me for saying this...but I don't think the Rubicon would have made it. The Jeep that was there was basically a Rubicon except for the lack of front locker. Even with a front locker...the diff ball's would have got MAJORLY caught up on the center.

We'll return to this trail again....wanna come?

[muskyman]

steve we have a hill that looks just like that one on the pipeline trail we call it the trench and the way to do it is use power till the top then turn across and stradle the last part. front and rear lockers are a absolute in that loose and ruted terain. my scout goes right up it...but then again it goes just about where ever you point it

Musky:the thinking mans fish

Dirt is for playing roads are for getting there