Winches (this is for you, Alec)

[TheGoodHummerMan]

Does this make sense? Probably not...

The H2's maximum trailer weight limit is up to 6,700 pounds, and its gross combination weight rating (GCWR) is listed at 14,000 pounds.

I've read that "most" winches never actually achieve full-rated pulling power so if you figure that your 8,000# winch developed 7,000# and was then doubled by using the block, the force exerted on your hitch should not have exceeded its rated (GCWR) strength? Looking at the pictures, it's obvious that this was NOT the case though, but why?

Maybe your winch DID achieve a full 8,000# effort and then doubling that the force exerted would have reached 16,000# --- a full ton over the H2 hitch's (GCWR) rated strength???

I think that I'll pass on using snatch blocks, or, is there a way to attach them so that the effort is not solely being exerted on the truck's hitch?

Then too, consider that the front hitch is about one third as strong as the rear hitch... The relatively wimpy front hitch would be easily over-stressed by using just the winch itself, without any snatch block. Is it adviseable to always use the rear winch whenever possible, reserving the front hitch for very light-weight pulling only?

Sorry for so much conjecture, but as you can probably tell --- I am new to the world of winching...

Thanks, Ed

[PARAGON]

First, the GCWR is for rolling weight, so the weight ratings really do not apply to winching. But that receiver has more force exerted on it than it's GCWR pound ratings. The force applied to the receiver when braking hard with a 7K# trailer behind it would be very high due to the inertia of the trailer. I think that Hummie2 must have had a defect in his receiver, because you would think it would drag the H2 towards the stump before it would bend the receiver.

In my opinion it is always advisable to use a snatch block. It's not just that you double the pulling power but you also attach to the vehicle at 2 different points, usually attached to different highly stressable locations.

In one instance, I buried my H2 down to the frame. I ended up using 2 snatch blocks. A double pulley one attached to a tree and the other attached to one tow hook on the front. The cable was coming from the winch, to one pulley on the tree, back to the snatch block attached to one of the tow hooks, back to the second pulley on the tree and then anchored to the second tow hook on front.

This same setup could be obtained from the rear also, since there are tow hooks on the rear. I had assumed that the chain holding the double pulley would fail before the frame members of the H2 would fail. I had tried to pull it out with just one snatch block first and it wouldn't budge. With the setup above it inched it out without much strain on the winch.

[Hummie2]

Ok guys let me clarify what happened a little.

The reason for my first reply was to answer the question of why not to use a winch larger than 9500# in the reciever(see the quote on the first pic).

No doubt I exceeded the rating of the hitch on the H2 and yes the hummer was sliding. I have had this winch for several years and never had any problem using it in other classIII receivers(you could double line it and stall the winch), but the H2 hitch is different. I don't believe my hitch had a defect, nothing looked abnormal in material or welds when I examined it after removal. Had I seen a defect you can bet I would have been in for warranty. The H2 hitch relys on its shape not material thickness(11 ga.) for its strength. Once this hitch starts to deflect alittle its strength is gone.

Could I/should I (hindsight being 20/20) rigged things differently? Yes. Had I doubled my line back to a chain sling hooked between both tow hooks this would have put 8000# load on the actual receiver and 4000# on each tow hook and the hitch would not have bent.

I would still recommend using a snatch block when ever possible. There is only half the strain on the motor, wire rope, and electrical system( most winches operating at full load capacity draw in excess of 400amps) to move the same load. Also by doubling the line back through a snatch block you pull more cable off the drum getting down to lower layer near the hub gaining a mechanical advantage and are less likely to pinch the line between other wraps on the drum.

A new hitch and permanent rear mount for the winch are in the works for my H2. I have coil suspension and the winch will fit where the air compressor does on air suspension. About 95% of my winch work is to pull some thing that won't move under its own power up onto a trailer and a rear winch is a very usefull tool. I will post pics when the mount and hitch are done.

Don

[This message was edited by Hummie2 on 04-28-03 at 02:20 PM.]

[TheGoodHummerMan]

Whew, a lot too learn, but great people helping me...

So, by spreading out the anchors of the pulling forces amongst the front receiver and both tow hooks, the winch can exert an increased amount of force and still not necessarily damage the hitch itself? With the two snatch blocks that Paragon described --- a dual pulley and a single pulley --- (or three pulleys) what would the multiplier be when using say a 9000# winch? Three times or four times? 27,000 pounds or 36,000 pounds?

What would the force on each pulley be?

[Hummie2]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> With the two snatch blocks that Paragon described --- a dual pulley and a single pulley --- (or three pulleys) what would the multiplier be when using say a 9000# winch? Three times or four times? 27,000 pounds or 36,000 pounds?

What would the force on each pulley be? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think of it this way, each run of line would add another 9000# of force. 1 run no block=9000#, 1block @ tree=18000#, 2nd block @ tow hook back to tree and tied off @ tree=27000#, or through a third block at tree and back to the other tow hook would be 36000#. The strain on the line at any point would still be 9000#. Each block will cut the overall speed by 50% at that block and double the amount of line to be pulled. Overall speed of 100fpm w/o block, would be 50fpm w/1 block @ tree, 25 fpm w/2nd block @ tow hook and tied to tree, 12.5 fpm w/3rd block @ tree and back to other tow hook.

Don

[This message was edited by Hummie2 on 04-28-03 at 09:14 PM.]

[TheGoodHummerMan]

By jove I think I'm beginning to get it! Now I can see why the "speed" of the winch is important. With two or three snatch blocks, the speed slows way down...

The blocks, if using a winch with a maximum pulling force of 9,000 pounds as an example would need to be rated 18,000#, at least, right... Preferably a bit more for safety?

So, now for the million dollar question. When I get my new H2 stuck, how do I figure out how much force I will need to unstick it? Maybe those books on recovery that just I ordered will help me figure something out for myself! <grin>

I really appreciate all the helpful and friendly info! Can't wait to get my winch...

Ed

[Hummie2]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So, now for the million dollar question. When I get my new H2 stuck, how do I figure out how much force I will need to unstick it? Maybe those books on recovery that just I ordered will help me figure something out for myself!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know anyway to calculate how much force it takes to unstick something. That is mostly a try and see situation. Hopefully the books will have a section on winch saftey. When winching I stay as far away from the cable as my remote will let me, also lay some old tarp over the winch line to slow it should it break. The new synthetic lines are supposed to be "dead" (won't fly back) if they break, but are susceptable to abraision. When using a block use a saftey rope with some slack in it tied off to another tree to stop it from flying back should it break loose from its anchor point. I had one break loose once.

Remember Paragon's 9000# winch put 9000# on the receiver, 18000# on tow hook #1, 9000# on tow hook #2, and 36000# of force on the tree.

BE SAFE

Don

BTW the rear tow hooks mount to 11 ga.(.120)also, same as the receiver.

[This message was edited by Hummie2 on 04-28-03 at 11:51 PM.]

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGoodHummerMan:
Whew, a lot too learn, but great people helping me...

So, by spreading out the anchors of the pulling forces amongst the front receiver and both tow hooks, the winch can exert an increased amount of force and still not necessarily damage the hitch itself? With the two snatch blocks that Paragon described --- a dual pulley and a single pulley --- (or three pulleys) what would the multiplier be when using say a 9000# winch? Three times or four times? 27,000 pounds or 36,000 pounds?

What would the force on each pulley be?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't think about it as multiplying the force by 2 or 3 times but as cutting the force needed in half or thirds. Each time you get stuck there will be a different amout of force needed. In the H2, I have found that you don't get "barely" stuck. If the vehicle stops moving in mud, you are in bad shape. So think of it this way. Each line that attaches to the vehicle is cutting the needed force from the winch.

So, with one block and the end of the cable anchored back at the winch, there are 2 lines attached to the vehicle and that means you cut the needed force in half. In the set up I had, there were 3 lines attached to the vehicle, so it cut the needed force into thirds.

This may not be the best explanation, maybe someone with physics background can explain better.

[TheGoodHummerMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paragon:
This may not be the best explanation, maybe someone with physics background can explain better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I think your explanation is pretty darned good... For me to learn anymore might require psychics instead of physics. <grin> I have ordered a couple of books and a video --- since the possibility of injury is possible --- I figure it might help a little.

Thanks a lot for everyone's help!

Ed

[Hummer Man]

Does the factory winch come with a harness plug for the front and the back??

[Hummie2]

Great explanation Paragon.

BTW where did you get your 2 pulley snatch block at?
I am interested in finding one.
Post a picture of it if you can.

Don

[TBarrow]

I am currently planning a winch purchase. Warn has developed a mosfet controlled 9500 SI it is powder coated Black. COST is said to be 1300.00 I loved the comment " you never get barely stuck." That was great. I have learned alot on this thread thank you all.

Black H2 Adventure Series+ all other options.

[Tiger Bait]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Does the factory winch come with a harness plug for the front and the back??


The "factory" one only comes with the front plug and remote control. The back plug and associated long cable is an add on accessory as is the winch cover. I had all installed.

[TheGoodHummerMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PhilD:
After getting stuck when a rear pull was needed and I did not have the rear plug and cable, I can wholeheartedly recommend the rear set up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 24-foot heavy-duty cable to use Warn winches in the H2's rear receiver costs $118 but not getting it seems a little bit like going on a date with Madonna without condoms...

Does anyone have any experience using or opinions regarding the replacement synthetic winch lines (Master-Pull, X-Line, etc)? Supposed to be 45 - 65% stronger and much safer to use, but Warn reccomends against using them because of the heat weakening them?

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
BTW where did you get your 2 pulley snatch block at?
I am interested in finding one.
Post a picture of it if you can.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don, it is a block that I have had on my farm for years and really am not sure where it came from. It has something like Block Industries, or Block Inc. on it and I think it says it's rated to 22 tons. It's at the farm, so can't get a picture right away.

[Adam in CO]

So do you guys think the 8000 is enough?

CO H2 Club Rocks!
aps101374@yahoo.com

[TheGoodHummerMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Adam in CO:
So do you guys think the 8000 is enough?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm beginning to think that it's not just the size of the winch but how you use it that counts...

The 8000# winch has about 16% less pulling power for 25% less cost than the 9.5ti model that I just got. The additional power could make the difference between being stuck or recovery. As Dirty Harry asked: Are you feeling lucky?

I guess that I would question how likely it would be that a 9500# winch would succeed when an 8000# winch would not. My "guess" would be that it isn't all that likely to make a BIG difference? But my decision came down to not wanting to have to wonder if I had paid that extra $220 would I have gotten unstuck... that plus it compensates nicely for my other short comings. <grin>

Ed