Programmers

[whipplecharged]

Ed and Jim,

I do not work for Xtremeflow. You make it sound as if it is their fault that Lil Devil was called by Granatelli. I just found a good deal on the parts and was letting people know it.

[TheGoodHummerMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by whipplesupercharged: "Ed and Jim, you make it sound as if it is their fault that Lil Devil was called by Granatelli."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa there big fella! I can't speak for Jim, but... I just asked you a simple question.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The GoodHummerMan asked whipplesupercharged: "Just curious, whipplesupercharged, but do you work for xtreme?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How does that SIMPLE question sound like I am placing blame?

I had just noticed that you have previously promoted them in other topics (nothing at all wrong with THAT by the way) and you seemed to know a lot about them, like how many units they had in stock and the dealer's cost of the programmer...

I refuse to get drug into another pissing match about doubting your affiliation. If you say you don't work for xtremeflow that is good enough for me! And, even if you had said you work for them, I wouldn't have held that against you either. I don't even care if you are related to Andy Granatelli.

It was a pretty simple question wasn't it? And for that matter, I don't even know if LilDevil was called by anyone, so I sure wouldn't accuse xtremeflow of doing it... Sheesh!

Ed

I met Andy Granatelli at the Indianapolis 500 back in the `60s... Great guy and fancy dresser!

[whipplecharged]

I have worked in after market parts for many years and I know a lot about prices and how many products places normally have in stock. I bought some parts from Xtremeflow and they took care of me so I ordered a Programmer from them and the price was right.

Sorry Ed for putting you in the awkard position with Jim

[TheGoodHummerMan]

I just got a reply from Chris with the Predator distributor (?) pdqperformance. In answer to my question, why there is such a great price difference between the programmer for the 2003 Hummer H2 and all other GM vehicles withn 6.0L gasoline engines, he replied:

"The engineering and tuning was a little more extensive for the Hummers as they were for the other applications. That difference is reflected in the pricing."

I guess that I really don't understand anything... I knew I was dumb, but now I realize I am plumb dumb... because I do NOT understand how or why there would be ANY difference in engineering or tuning.

I am probably wrong, as usual, but to me this stinks. Charge $170 more for the Hummer model just makes no sense to me at all, and it offends me.

Maybe some wise person can explain to me where I am going wrong?

Ed

Maybe whipple will know the answer to why the price is so screwy?

[mbanks21]

Hey Lil Devil, who called you from Granatelli? Arent they little nazis over there? I was trying to sell one of "their" programmers on Ebay and they got be suspended and banned from Ebay. Now Ebay wants money from me, good luck!

[Detonate]

Time to boycott Grantelli!

-Jim March
Arlington TX
2003 Red H2
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder

[BADRAP]

Please check out this thread... I think that will you like this one.. Let me know..

http://www.elcova.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=2826088551&f=4616043161&m=202606883 3

BADRAP
03 H2, Lux, Pewter, more upgrades soon..
Houston Texas H2 Hummer Chapter..
badrap@sbcglobal.net

[Lil Devil]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mbanks21:
Hey Lil Devil, who called you from Granatelli? Arent they little nazis over there? I was trying to sell one of "their" programmers on Ebay and they got be suspended and banned from Ebay. Now Ebay wants money from me, good luck!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

they identified themselves as the service/product manager for the predator. their phone # did ring @ the Granatelli offices.

oh well....life goes on

----------------------------------------------------------
2002 Vette; Vortex Intake, Vortech S/C, Stage II heads, comp cam (220/220/114/.581), 3.90 gears, 14 inch cross drilled rotors, 170 stat, NGK TR6, B&M Ripper Shifter, Autometer Boost & Fuel pressure gauges on a-pillar, Hotchkis Sway Bars, HRE 543 wheels (F:265/35 R:295/35), Z06 titanium exhaust, RK LT headers, Magnaflow x-pipe, Programming by Morgan Motorsports, 5% tint, AA Frame & Rocker Savers, TB Bypass, Lowered 2", Custom Audio;570 RWHP Dyno Here

2003 H2; 37 inch tires, Manik Off-Road pkg., Airaid Intake, Custom Audio

[Skulz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Granatelli/DiabloSport Performance tunes require the use of Super Unleaded/ Premium grade fuel only, Amoco or Mobile if possible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any 'easy' reason to explain this?

I can sort of grasp about 1/2 of the other descriptions...

Thanks for the extra details!

[whipplecharged]

For what I know about the calibration differances of the 6.0 motors The H2 was more extensive in the development because GM's calibrations were different between the other 6.0 motors. The weight of the H2 makes a difference but the biggest thing was GM making it different. All of the 6.0 motors got a different calibration for 2003. The H2 was the first 03 6.0 released and the torque management was the most difficult to crack on the H2 but it has been done. If you notice they charge more for the H2 programmer from Predator but the Powerflash is about the same price. One main reason is because it is an H2.

[TheGoodHummerMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by whipplecharged:
"The H2 was the first 03 6.0 released and the torque management was the most difficult to crack on the H2 but it has been done. If you notice they charge more for the H2 programmer from Predator but the Powerflash is about the same price. One main reason is because it is an H2."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whipplecharged,

Maybe you didn't mind paying $170 more for the programmer for the H2, but to me it stinks. That you are defending this price gouging, and price gouging is what it seems like to me, makes me wonder.

$170 more? Wow. That must have been a lot of extra work to crack that nut? I'm sorry, but I am skeptical of everything, so this is prbably just another case of me being out to lunch... But, $170 extra? Give me a break...

It sounds like a case of anyone who was silly enough to pay that much for a Hummer H2 will pay a lot extra for a programmer! Well, not me.

If that means I am a bad man, so be it... Maybe Granatelli's right and a lot of H2 owners will rush to pay outrageously inflated prices for the same basic programmer as compared to the ones they sell for all other GM 6.0L engines...

Ed

Fool me once, shame on me...

[Patriot]

Ed,

I think what you are seeing is "typical" for new model year products. They have to get their R&D money back to cover costs. I suspect the price will drop next year.

But...not to make you feel bad...I also think the price for the H2 will drop as well. So are you then gonna gripe about that?

You want the best first...you PAY for the best first. It's the capitalist way man!!

[TheGoodHummerMan]

Patriot,

Simply stating it, you are probably right and I am probably wrong. I do NOT know what their actual expenses were nor what is involved in marketing these programmers. I am merely basing my conclusions upon what I perceive to be price gouging. Seriously. Maybe someone can just explain to me how I am wrong? Please keep it simple if possible?

What tremendous R&D expense? Isn't the basic Predator Flash Tuner exactly the same whether you are connecting it to a 2003 Yukon or a 2003 H2. The performance "tunes" are different. But does this justify charging 40% more for it? An additional $170 bucks?

The Predator #998917 unit works with the following GM vehicles and lists for $425:

1999-2002 Camaro/Firebird - LS1
1999-2002 Corvette - LS1
1999-2002 GM trucks/SUVs - 4.8L to 8.1L

The Predator #995917 unit works with the following GM vehicles and also lists for $425:

2003 GM trucks/SUVs - all gas engines

But, the Predator #990917 for the Hummer H2 costs $595.

It would seem like there is a world of difference between a truck with a 4.8L enginge and the same model truck equipped with an 8.1L engine... Different horsepowers; different torques; different transmissions and gear ratios. But, they are all priced at the same $425 amount.

Just in 2003 alone, GM offers trucks/SUVs with:

4.3L, 200hp with 260 ftlb of torque
4.8L, 270hp with 285 ftlb of torque
5.3L, 285hp with 325 ftlb of torque
6.0L, 300hp with 360 ftlb of torque
6.0L, 315hp with 365 ftlb of torque
6.0L, 316hp with 360 ftlb of torque (Hummer H2)
6.0L, 320hp with 365 ftlb of torque
6.0L, 345hp with 380 ftlb of torque (Escalade)
8.1L, 340hp with 455 ftlb of torque

and probably others...

Okay, so I'm probably wrong about price gouging? But the way it looks to me is that this is a clear cut and obvious case of overcharging H2 owners and blaming it on R&D expenses which seems totally lame.

Do you REALLY believe, as you say, that the price of Hummers will decrease in 2004? Based upon what? When was the last time any automaker announced price reductions from one model year to the next? Maybe a better question would be have they ever reduced prices?

But to answer your question, no, I wouldn't gripe about paying less for an H2. But, if the prices for H2s went up 40% next year for the same vehicle, just a new model year --- and the prices of all other GM vehicles went up say 2% or 3%, I would definitely scream bloody murder if I wanted to buy one. Of course that is a silly example. GM Corp. isn't stupid and I doubt very seriously that they would do something so bizarre...

So, maybe you can explain to me how charging 40% more is only fair, and how the programmer took thousands and thousands of R&D dollars to develope for the H2. But, remember, the programmer that Granatelli sells for the Hummer H2 doesn't do anything that the other models don't do... Right?

Ed

[Patriot]

Ed,

How about sheer number of vehicles in each of the classes you listed?

How many Firebirds, LS-1's, and GM trucks are on the road compared to H2's??

I also think the H2 programming would be VERY special compared to the others just based on the balance of weight, torque, HP, etc.

I do think if Hummer intro's other models that look more appealing...the H2 prices will drop...OR at least there will be better financing, incentives, etc.

Oh...one more thing...remember when VCR's and CD players were $1000.00??? Why was that??? Hmmmm

Finally...."Fair"...no, I agree...not fair. BUT it is the American way...thank God you have the "American choice" NOT to buy it!!

[TheGoodHummerMan]

Patriot,

Your explanations are falling on deaf ears. The "sheer" numbers seem to be the 40% extra MSRP equalling an extra $170 profit to people selling the programmers. List prices of: $425 vs $595.

If it were a matter of having to redesign the programmer it "might" be understandable, but the fact is that the only "difference" is in the performance "TUNE" for which they are charging an extra $170 bucks per unit. A custom performance "tune" for a specific engine/transmission/drive train does NOT require a major effort. Most people will probably make changes to the stock tune anyway. It is more of a starting point?

The VCR analogy is very good. When VCRs and CD players cost $1,000 --- you never saw a brand later come out with a $1,400 model that was basically identical to the $1,000 units, in fact the price dropped as new models were produced. Just because you could play a different VHS movie or CD on them, did not cost you 40% more. So your example seems to NOT favor the Predator price gouging scheme.

Maybe the people at Predator (Granatelli?) are right and "most" people who buy Hummer H2s are so easily duped that they will pony up 40% more for their product just because they market their programmer as being specially designed for the Hummer. You appear to be a perfect example of someone who seems not to care. To me however, that seems utterly absurd. But, as you say, this is America (cue patriotic music) and I won't have to pay the artifically inflated prices that most dealers are charging their customers. I will, also, make a note of which companies felt it was good business to overcharge Hummer owners.

I thought the point was not about how great America is though, but about the Granatelli Predator pricing being all crewed up. I guess that is how you got your nickname though? I guess that even if you do pay too much for Hummer accessories --- you aren't all bad!

God Bless America.

Ed

[whipplecharged]

It not great that the retail price is higher but the cost to the dealers is also higher. The Predator products have a min. that a dealer can advertise it for. But as you know some sell it for less. I'm not saying that I accept or agree with the higher cost but if we want to buy it we don't have much of a choice. Another good example is the Whipple Supercharger the H2 supercharger is $300.00 more than the 6.0 Denali and the 6.0 Escalde kits. There isn't much difference in the kit but it cost more.

[TheGoodHummerMan]

whipplecharged,

Judging by your name, you're evidently pretty well sold on Whipple? But I think you've provided us with yet another example of charging extra for a product that is similar except that it is marketed for the Hummer H2... I am not surprised at all. There are probably many such scams out there? If a company can get by with overcharging for its products and people PAY extra for nothing, I guess the equipment manufacturers are only taking advantage of suckers...

Interestingly, not ALL manufacturers practice such business practices and are satisfied with "normal" profits instead of gouging their customers. An example? Mangnacharger (Eaton). The kits for the 6.0L GM SUVs like Tahoe, Yukon, Escalade, etc are the exact same price as the kit for use with the 6.0L Hummer H2 engine.

You said: "There isn't much difference in the kit but it cost more." Don't all of these kits have the same basic components for use on the same basic engines... In fact there is no real difference in these kits is there? For me, at least, that alone is a good enough reason for me to NOT buy a Whipple Supercharger. Maybe I'm just strange--- but I object to these highly questionable pricing tactics.

Comparing apples to apples, if it costs me more for an apple just because I'm going to eat it in my H2, I think I'll just tell the apple salesman to take a hike.

Ed

[Patriot]

Ed,

Duped huh??? NO, not at all. I just don't piss away valuable time in life worrying about such things because I know there really isn't anything I can do about the price...I either pay it, or I don't.

People realize they are paying more. And they make the decision based on "wanting" what Granatelli has.

I could sit here and bitch all day about the price but it still won't get me a programmer. So a person has to decide if he/she thinks it's worth it. And each will decide differently.

You keep holding your breath and maybe the price will drop...but I doubt it because "dupes" like me keep paying the price.

Maybe you should take your H2 in and have that squeek looked at???

[TheGoodHummerMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Patriot:
"I just don't piss away valuable time in life worrying about such things because I know there really isn't anything I can do about the price...I either pay it, or I don't.

You keep holding your breath and maybe the price will drop...but I doubt it because "dupes" like me keep paying the price.

Maybe you should take your H2 in and have that squeek looked at???"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Patriot,

Unless you are the guy at Granatelli's who sets MSRP, I sure didn't intend to make you angry. But, maybe if I had wasted $170 on a product and someone pointed it out to me, I would be angry to? Angry at myself?

As the saying goes about a fool and his money... Link

Nothing we can do about this? Hardly. We can point out their lousy pricing schemes in Forums like this so people can decide whether they really want to "piss away" their money. If you have already paid the extra price, don't get mad at me - get mad at yourself or even better Granatelli. Or, do as I did when I realized I could have saved about $5,000 on my Hummer by finding a dealer who would have made a GMS deal... I just chalked it up to experience. But, I sure didn't try and defend Hummer dealers who refuse to make GMS deals. Maybe if I would have previously read about how some dealers were doing GMS deals in a forum like this one, I would have been able to save the money? At any rate, an informed public is much better equipped to deal with companies like Granatelli's that practices price gouging. But to condone this type of rip off is NOT any way to make things better. Sure, if you don't care about throwing away a couple hundred bucks at a shot, order a truck load of programmers from the people charging excessively. It's a free country!

Anyone who wants a Predator can, if they do a little work, find it at a reasonable price --- although, the good folks at Granatelli are doing what they can to make it harder. If you work for Granatelli, or any other company that artificially inflates prices on Hummer accessories, I can understand why you would not appreciate my opinion. But, if Hummer owners are shopping for a good programmer at a fair price --- maybe this forum and the messages posted here can save them a couple hundred bucks?

As a "patriot", you must surely appreciate freedom of speach? Or is it freedom to "squeak" as far as you are concerned?

Ed

Hummer Owners: Unite Against Price Gouging!

[This message was edited by TheGoodHummerMan on 06-09-03 at 09:05 AM.]

[This message was edited by TheGoodHummerMan on 06-09-03 at 09:07 AM.]

[Patriot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Hummer Owners: Unite Against Price Gouging!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Ed...take your $170.00 and start a website..maybe you might get two or three others to help you with your "cause"...Ha ha

And I'm not angry at anyone...and I surely didn't "waste" my money. I just wonder about people who spend the money on a Hummer and then complain at $170.00. Face it, the truck isn't worth what any of us paid but, like the Predator, if you want one...you gotta pay for it. Shoot, the cost on ANY of the programmers is probably pennies...so you gonna bitch about that next?? I guess in your book, as they recover costs they should lower the price until it's free?? Other wise it's a gouge??And where do you set the bar?? You say $170.00 is "gouging" but what if you found out they cost $5.00 to make...are the other models then gouging too?...with the H2 programmer being a deeper gouge than the others??

I am a Patriot and I really hate people that want everything for free or justified to the "Nth" degree...

Are you the type of guy that pisses away $20.00 bucks in gas driving around to find the best deal that might save you $10.00???

Sheesh...get over it....

This is my last post on this...

Bottom line:

You didn't buy one and feel hurt cause your getting "GOUGED"...

I did buy one and am enjoying the hell out of no TM in my drivetrain.
See you on the next hill as I blow by you and your $170.00!!

Maybe you can buy dinner with all that cash??? I'll meet you up ahead and reserve the table while I wait for you to climb that hill and catch up

Good luck Ed...no hard feelings...just different opinions.