Newby thread Highjacked - Lets talk about filters!

[kma]

I figure that last response is just as relevant as almost every single response refuting an increase in performance on an H3.

BTW. nobody is telling you to buy one, some people are just telling you what they have found to be true.

[Xotik H3]

Originally Posted by Huck BB62

Well, they did use a dyno. Call me nutty, but that carry's a little weight compared to the "it felt faster" point of view.

Yeah, the tests are on a diesel. I've yet to see where K&N builds their filter any different for any application from a Toyota Tercel up to a Viper.

I can't figure out for the life of me why, after reviewing the above website that tests K&N filters, someone would choose to abuse their engine that way unless they figured on selling it instead of keeping it. The test is a damnation of their media, not of the intake system, and beyond that the other test that I referenced is a test of SEVERAL systems. Today's intakes are damned well engineered and don't need, or benefit, from upgrades or modifications with a stock engine. Even at that, I will never believe the K&N claims again unless I see a dyno test, period.

The H3 intake is already a cold air system. Looking at it, and the displacement of the I-5, it's hard to see any gains to be made by spending money on the K&N or any other intake. The stock filter is very large for the engine's displacement. As others have said on here, it's an air pump. If the engine isn't capable of moving more air than the stock filter and intake are capable of flowing without restriction, then there's no benefit to spending the money on the "upgrade".

There are 2 problems with your statements -

First- Intakes are made to flow in a compromise between air needed and durability. The engineers must take into account the worst possible environment that the H3 could be subject to. In this instance I will use a sandstorm in Iraq... the stock set-up will protect your engine in that environment... I don't plan on driving my H3 in a sandstorm so I don't need that protection. My media with less restriction will provide my engine the protection it needs while allowing better flow.

Second - No matter how large your intake it is only as efficient as it's biggest restriction. Any engine, including a lawnmower will benefit from a less restrictive air intake. A naturally aspirated engine works on Vacuum in order to pull air in and the closer you get to Atmospheric pressure the better... any media what so ever will limit the amount of air molecules that can fill the void in any given amount of time, in this case the intake valve open time. The more air molecules, the more fuel you can pack to reach your ideal air/ fuel ratio. For simplicity sake, I will use a 14:1 air fuel ratio. If I can add 14 more parts of air than you, I can add 1 more part of fuel than you. I have increased the explosive charge in my engine, X5 (1 per cylinder) over your engine, which allows me greater power.

I'll accept the carefully GM engineered (at considerable expense) intake system on my H3. But I will risk moding the intake on my lawn mower .

[Viet Nam Vette]

Originally Posted by Steve - SanJose

I'll accept the carefully GM engineered (at considerable expense) intake system on my H3. But I will risk moding the intake on my lawn mower .

X2.....

[Xotik H3]

Originally Posted by Steve - SanJose

I'll accept the carefully GM engineered (at considerable expense) intake system on my H3. But I will risk moding the intake on my lawn mower .

I love that response!!

[HUMTECH]

To add to xotik's post, more air flow into the combustion chamber the computer will add more fuel when it senses A lean mixture, add A cold air intake and the air is more dense again allowing more air molecules into the combustion chamber again more fuel will be added. Now you need to get it out for it to be truly efficient which will require exhaust upgrades.

[RubHer Yellow Ducky]

Originally Posted by HUMTECH

To add to xotik's post, more air flow into the combustion chamber the computer will add more fuel when it senses A lean mixture, add A cold air intake and the air is more dense again allowing more air molecules into the combustion chamber again more fuel will be added. Now you need to get it out for it to be truly efficient which will require exhaust upgrades.

for the past year thread after thread has talked about cold air intakes...

AND

for the past year I and others have told people the H-3 comes from the factory with cold air intake. Take a couple of minutes and trace it while looking under the hood. It feeds from (within) the right front fender, not from under the hood.

RYD

[Huck BB62]

Originally Posted by RubHer Yellow Ducky

for the past year thread after thread has talked about cold air intakes...

AND

for the past year I and others have told people the H-3 comes from the factory with cold air intake. Take a couple of minutes and trace it while looking under the hood. It feeds from (within) the right front fender, not from under the hood.

RYD

Exakry!

One other thing that people aren't considering with all their high dollar "less restrictive" systems: The MAF sensor is the same diameter.

All this talk means squat. Dyno sheets are the only thing that I believe and if you're only talking a few horsepower at the sake of dirt ingestion, well, that's a decision that people have to make.

Yea but think of the obscene profit margins on those aftermarket intake systems, and without any real R&D spending. Nice short term business model for some. I like the ones that are considered underhood bling, at least there is some truth in that.

[HUMTECH]

Was talking in general about cold air intakes, not just an H-3 which I realize is cool air fed, just meant in general if your intake air is not cool air fed, modifying this can improve your air density. As for flow through the MAF sensor? Don't get what your saying. The maf sensor is A screen which the diameter is approx the same as the throttle body. No restriction there whatsoever.

[Viet Nam Vette]

I like the ones that are considered underhood bling, at least there is some truth in that.

[Huck BB62]

Originally Posted by HUMTECH

Was talking in general about cold air intakes, not just an H-3 which I realize is cool air fed, just meant in general if your intake air is not cool air fed, modifying this can improve your air density. As for flow through the MAF sensor? Don't get what your saying. The maf sensor is A screen which the diameter is approx the same as the throttle body. No restriction there whatsoever.

My point on the MAF sensor is that it gets to stay the same size. I looked at my system this afternoon and can't find anything significantly smaller in diameter than the MAF. At 6000rpm, you MAY get some benefit from a smoother aftermarket, but you gotta go through that diameter of restriction, the MAF.

I'd like to hear from anyone that's dynoed their H3 with both stock and aftermarket intake system.

[raptorman53]

Originally Posted by Huck BB62

My point on the MAF sensor is that it gets to stay the same size. I looked at my system this afternoon and can't find anything significantly smaller in diameter than the MAF. At 6000rpm, you MAY get some benefit from a smoother aftermarket, but you gotta go through that diameter of restriction, the MAF.

I'd like to hear from anyone that's dynoed their H3 with both stock and aftermarket intake system.

Huck I understand what your saying about the MAF sensor. That being the diameter that the MAF is, it will only allow a certain volume of air. What we don't know is if the volume of air coming into the intake is the maximum volume the MAF sensor can allow.

[ChevyHighPerformance]

Don't loose sight of other sources of dirt in the engine. For those of you with the stock intake, stock filter, and stock exhaust - rub your finger around the inside of the tailpipe. That black soot came from the combustion and made its way past the cat in the exhaust manifold, past the main cat, past the resonator, and past the muffler. This is just what made it through all these barriers - think what got trappped. The size of the particles in this soot ranges the gambet in sizes. Some of this soot gets trapped in the oil, somes makes it past the oil filter, gets pumped through the bearings, etc.

Clean the tail pipe and drive through a tank of gas and see what soot came back. I'll bet that this is more dirt that gets past the K&N in that same amount of time.

There's junk in the fuel that gets past the fuel filter too.

[Xotik H3]

Originally Posted by ChevyHighPerformance

Don't loose sight of other sources of dirt in the engine. For those of you with the stock intake, stock filter, and stock exhaust - rub your finger around the inside of the tailpipe. That black soot came from the combustion and made its way past the cat in the exhaust manifold, past the main cat, past the resonator, and past the muffler. This is just what made it through all these barriers - think what got trappped. The size of the particles in this soot ranges the gambet in sizes. Some of this soot gets trapped in the oil, somes makes it past the oil filter, gets pumped through the bearings, etc.

Clean the tail pipe and drive through a tank of gas and see what soot came back. I'll bet that this is more dirt that gets past the K&N in that same amount of time.

There's junk in the fuel that gets past the fuel filter too.

That black soot is called exhaust. It has nothing to do with external dirt, that soot is Hydrocarbons as a by product of combustion.

[Huck BB62]

Originally Posted by Xotik H3

That black soot is called exhaust. It has nothing to do with external dirt, that soot is Hydrocarbons as a by product of combustion.

And most of the soot that DOES build up is when the engine's cold. The I-5 is a tight, well built, modern, fuel injected engine. The oil is not getting contaminated that much, nowhere near as much as a carbed engine of yesteryear. It heats up very quickly, and has a top notch computerized, closed loop fuel injection system. When it's operating temperatures are up to normal, it has very little blow by contaminating the oil. Even in that event, soot contaminates are nowhere equal to silica contaminates (dirt, very HARD dirt, second only to diamonds on the hardness scale)

[ChevyHighPerformance]

Originally Posted by Xotik H3

That black soot is called exhaust. It has nothing to do with external dirt, that soot is Hydrocarbons as a by product of combustion.

The point is that there are other sources of dirt in the engine - my first sentence.

What color is the oil when you change it? Where do you think this contamination comes from? Don't you think these suspended particles get pumped around the engine?

GM found that if you use company XXX's fuel you can go longer before oil changes because thier fuel burns cleaner and doens't contaminate the oil as much.

[ChevyHighPerformance]

Originally Posted by Huck BB62

And most of the soot that DOES build up is when the engine's cold. The I-5 is a tight, well built, modern, fuel injected engine. The oil is not getting contaminated that much, nowhere near as much as a carbed engine of yesteryear. It heats up very quickly, and has a top notch computerized, closed loop fuel injection system. When it's operating temperatures are up to normal, it has very little blow by contaminating the oil. Even in that event, soot contaminates are nowhere equal to silica contaminates (dirt, very HARD dirt, second only to diamonds on the hardness scale)

Blow-by is a different contamination. How about the dirt that comes from the fuel? I agree that silica is one of the worst contaminates.

[ChevyHighPerformance]

Originally Posted by Huck BB62

Exakry!

One other thing that people aren't considering with all their high dollar "less restrictive" systems: The MAF sensor is the same diameter.

All this talk means squat. Dyno sheets are the only thing that I believe and if you're only talking a few horsepower at the sake of dirt ingestion, well, that's a decision that people have to make.

The 06 H3 has an intake nozzle of about 1.8 inches ID which is the smallest diameter portion of the stock intake which gets eliminated with an aftermarket system like K&N, AEM, Volant,etc. The MAF ID is larger than 1.8 inches.

[ChevyHighPerformance]

Originally Posted by RubHer Yellow Ducky

for the past year thread after thread has talked about cold air intakes...

AND

for the past year I and others have told people the H-3 comes from the factory with cold air intake. Take a couple of minutes and trace it while looking under the hood. It feeds from (within) the right front fender, not from under the hood.

RYD

It's not true cold air but does not directly breath warm engine compartment air. On an 80 F day, measure the air inlet temperature (IAT) with an OBDII scanner after pulling out from a 1 minute red light and you see the IAT reach 105 F or so. While you are moving the IAT will cool down but will still be +10 F above outside air.

GM tries to breath from a fendewell, or duct air from outside on mostly all their vehicles.

If you have a dark color H3 like black, the fenderwell area will get a little warmer.

Aftermarket systems tend to breath in more warm engine compartment air. You have to analyze the impact of a higher volume of warmer air on the otto cycle PV cycle to see if you gain or lose.

I've modified mine to truly breath outside air. My IATs are about 2-3 F warmer than the outside air.