Why is a JK Wrangler So Much Better

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by RuggedH2

I just spent a week wheeling with a modified JK. I took my truck on every trail and every line he did. He has some advantages, for instance he was able to see more than I can, and my rig is much heavier than his, but my H2 did everything his rig did, on some pretty difficult trails.

There is a caveat here. You arguement holds the logical fallacy that because you you both completed the trails together, both rigs are equally capable. That is simply not true. In reality, the JK will do a lot more than the H2 off-road and the JK could do a lot tougher trails than two drove on.

I drove my H2 through Moab on 7 separate trips. I became very comfortable driving it and knew it inside and out. This year I drove my modified JK thru Moab and it walked everything like it was nothing. I am now looking for new trails to do (Pritchett, BFE, Rusty Nail, etc) because the JK is so capable it's almost boring doing something like GS.

When I ran GS this year I did a lot of things that I could not historically get my H2 to do (The wall - left side, Golden Stairs - slow crawl instead of momentum lurch, Double Whammy (never tried in H2). Almost everything was dead simple easy in the JK. It's simply a more capable off-road rig. I'm not saying it's a "better" rig because that such a stupid idea I'm not going to go there. But it's is more capable off road when you lift if and get some meats on it.

I believe you have to drive both rigs yourself to actually have a perpective on which rig is better offroad. That elminates differences in driver capability.

Finally, I'm not saying the H2 is not good offroad. It is, and I've take mine all over the place and have done things I couldn't believe were possible with such a big rig. I do miss the interior space, the nice quiet road ride, and the power........especially the power.

[RuggedH2]

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

There is a caveat here. You arguement holds the logical fallacy that because you you both completed the trails together, both rigs are equally capable. That is simply not true. In reality, the JK will do a lot more than the H2 off-road and the JK could do a lot tougher trails than two drove on.

CO,

I realize what you are saying. I've seen it too. The thing is....on those trails, the two different rigs kept the same pace and we took the same lines. All the trails we ran are listed among the top 10 hardest in Moab.

You should be able to run Pritchett and Rusty Nail, but even a lifted and locked JK will be pushing their limits there.

How many trails do you think the JK opened up to you in the Moab area? Five more? Seven? The extra trails available to you now also include the substantial risk of breakage. Most people I know that run those trails....tow their rigs.

How many people out there really wheel their rigs this hard? Hell almost everyone I know thinks I'm crazy for doing this to an H2.

I used to consider buying some Franken-fawk rig to beat the crap out of in Moab.

I do like the JK's. There is much to like, not enough to trade my H2 though. This has to be a one rig for everything situation for me, and the Hummer still has more positives than the JK in my situation.

I was serious about the buggy though. I may be running Pritchett with you guys.......Hell, If I'm gonna tow it anyway.

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by RuggedH2

CO,

I realize what you are saying. I've seen it too. The thing is....on those trails, the two different rigs kept the same pace and we took the same lines. All the trails we ran are listed among the top 10 hardest in Moab.

You should be able to run Pritchett and Rusty Nail, but even a lifted and locked JK will be pushing their limits there.

How many trails do you think the JK opened up to you in the Moab area? Five more? Seven? The extra trails available to you now also include the substantial risk of breakage. Most people I know that run those trails....tow their rigs.

How many people out there really wheel their rigs this hard? Hell almost everyone I know thinks I'm crazy for doing this to an H2.

I used to consider buying some Franken-fawk rig to beat the crap out of in Moab.

I do like the JK's. There is much to like, not enough to trade my H2 though. This has to be a one rig for everything situation for me, and the Hummer still has more positives than the JK in my situation.

I was serious about the buggy though. I may be running Pritchett with you guys.......Hell, If I'm gonna tow it anyway.

We ran BTR this year and it was a piece of cake. I turned away on that trail when I started out on it in my H2.

Not sure how many more trails it opens up. I'm just starting to look into it. I would think at least a dozen. But it will be fun finding more trails. I've run Hells, GS, etc so many times that's it's getting routine.

I don't buy for a second your argument that if you want to do harder trails - get a buggy. The whole thing is a continuum of user preferences for offroad vs comfort. It's not H2 (for both) and Buggy for off-road only. The JK bridges that gap between those two and that's were some people with a preference for more hardcore and less comfort will go. I did.

If I take you arguement the other way I'd end up saying "If you want more comfort, why don't you just buy a Suburban"? It's a flawed argument.

And, doing harder trails in a JK is no more risk for damage that GS in an H2. The JK is built for harder trails and thus is an equivalent risk, not more.

[RuggedH2]

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

We ran BTR this year and it was a piece of cake. I turned away on that trail when I started out on it in my H2.

Not sure how many more trails it opens up. I'm just starting to look into it. I would think at least a dozen. But it will be fun finding more trails. I've run Hells, GS, etc so many times that's it's getting routine.

I don't buy for a second your argument that if you want to do harder trails - get a buggy. The whole thing is a continuum of user preferences for offroad vs comfort. It's not H2 (for both) and Buggy for off-road only. The JK bridges that gap between those two and that's were some people with a preference for more hardcore and less comfort will go. I did.

If I take you arguement the other way I'd end up saying "If you want more comfort, why don't you just buy a Suburban"? It's a flawed argument.

And, doing harder trails in a JK is no more risk for damage that GS in an H2. The JK is built for harder trails and thus is an equivalent risk, not more.

Hey CO,

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but to me your tone sounds like you are taking my opinions personally.

Dude......I like the JK's......look at WPage's comments.

I have driven the JK....actually a few different ones, both on the road and off.

As far as risk goes, I know several people with bad-ass rigs that I would guess are more capable than where your JK is now.......that have seriously broken on Pritchett. They were not able to fix on the trail, and had to be dragged/winched out by others, and towed home. I know two people that rolled TJ's on Rusty Nail. I would guess the majority of the new trails opened up to you exist in area BFE, and I have yet to see a JK on Helldorado, although I expect that soon one will put out footage.

Alan for me, the H2 fits my needs. I take my family with me wheeling as often as not, 3 kids under 12 and my little girl is in a car seat. They were forced out of the truck almost the entire trail on Moab Rim. This rig does what I need it to do now. I snowboard a lot in the winter and my kids and I have a ton of gear (it all fits in the two).

If you read what I wrote, I think we are saying many of the same things.

Everyone makes choices based on their own circumstances. For me, it comes down to toys and the funds available. I already have a motorcycle worth more than the buggy I posted above. If I was going to run the Helldorado type trails, I would prefer a buggy. Like I said if I'm towing it anyway.......why not?

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by RuggedH2

Hey CO,

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but to me your tone sounds like you are taking my opinions personally.

Dude......I like the JK's......look at WPage's comments.

I have driven the JK....actually a few different ones, both on the road and off.

As far as risk goes, I know several people with bad-ass rigs that I would guess are more capable than where your JK is now.......that have seriously broken on Pritchett. They were not able to fix on the trail, and had to be dragged/winched out by others, and towed home. I know two people that rolled TJ's on Rusty Nail. I would guess the majority of the new trails opened up to you exist in area BFE, and I have yet to see a JK on Helldorado, although I expect that soon one will put out footage.

Alan for me, the H2 fits my needs. I take my family with me wheeling as often as not, 3 kids under 12 and my little girl is in a car seat. They were forced out of the truck almost the entire trail on Moab Rim. This rig does what I need it to do now. I snowboard a lot in the winter and my kids and I have a ton of gear (it all fits in the two).

If you read what I wrote, I think we are saying many of the same things.

Everyone makes choices based on their own circumstances. For me, it comes down to toys and the funds available. I already have a motorcycle worth more than the buggy I posted above. If I was going to run the Helldorado type trails, I would prefer a buggy. Like I said if I'm towing it anyway.......why not?

I'm not taking your comments personally at all. You are taking my response personally, I think. I'm only commenting on some of the flawed logic. You're a good guy, and I know that. So I'm just commenting since I have a good perspective having owned and driven both rigs on a hard core trail.

I am pointing out that two rigs "completing" the same trail does not mean they are equally capable. I've seen guys with Samurais do GS. Does that mean a Suzuki is as capable as an H2? No way. That, again, would be totally flawed logic. It's a tough trail for a Samurai, and likely for breakage. It's not for an H2 or a JK.

Also...the JK you drove with, I think, is a Sahara with D30s on it. That's not the same as a lifted Rubi with Dana 44s.

Every trail in Moab has caused damage for every single kind of vehicle. I don't really think that's a good barometer. GS is tough for a Samurai. Potato Salad is tough for an H2. Pritchett is tough for a Rubi (assumed, but we'll see), etc. It's all about the relative difficulty compared to the capability of your rig offroad.

Add to that driver skill as well. H2s are made for Hell's revenge. They kill it like it's nothing. But I've seen a dumb-ass H2 drivers like Tower almost kill themselves.

As for Helldorado.......I don't think so for a JK - not Upper. Maybe lower though. I'm interested in trying the lower section.

[CO Hummer]

One of the other reasons I got my JK is that my PRIMARY use for it is wheeling. I drive a Suburban for daily in-town driving. It's a luxury liner compared to the JK and loaded with power.

In the future I'm likely to be chopping up my JK and it will become more and more of a rock buggy. I love to fabricate as a hobby and I have long term plans for a beefy cage, larger tires, etc, etc.

But for now, the suckiness of the JK on the highway (actually, it's not as bad as I'm making it sound) is not of any concern for me. When I go skiing - I take the Burb. When I wanna wheel, I take the JK. I can do 5 hours trips to Moab in the JK and it's not that bad. But I'll not often drive the JK on 1000 mile trips. For that matter, I had stopped taking my H2 on 1000 mile trips because we do those in my Honda Pilot, the ultimate road SUV.

[RuggedH2]

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

I'm not taking your comments personally at all. You are taking my response personally, I think. I'm only commenting on some of the flawed logic. You're a good guy, and I know that. So I'm just commenting since I have a good perspective having owned and driven both rigs on a hard core trail.

I am pointing out that two rigs "completing" the same trail does not mean they are equally capable. I've seen guys with Samurais do GS. Does that mean a Suzuki is as capable as an H2? No way. That, again, would be totally flawed logic. It's a tough trail for a Samurai, and likely for breakage. It's not for an H2 or a JK.

Also...the JK you drove with, I think, is a Sahara with D30s on it. That's not the same as a lifted Rubi with Dana 44s.

Every trail in Moab has caused damage for every single kind of vehicle. I don't really think that's a good barometer. GS is tough for a Samurai. Potato Salad is tough for an H2. Pritchett is tough for a Rubi (assumed, but we'll see), etc. It's all about the relative difficulty compared to the capability of your rig offroad.

Add to that driver skill as well. H2s are made for Hell's revenge. They kill it like it's nothing. But I've seen a dumb-ass H2 drivers like Tower almost kill themselves.

As for Helldorado.......I don't think so for a JK - not Upper. Maybe lower though. I'm interested in trying the lower section.

I see what you are saying.......and I agree.

My point was.......on those trails, there was no measurable difference in ability, both rigs were capable. I realize that my friends JK could do more, but the trails did not require more, so both ran more or less equal.

The Jeep my friend traded in for his JK was locked front and rear with Dana 44's on both axles with 4.88's. I ran Poison Spider with a locked custom TJ with Dana 60's and four links. He didn't do anything I couldn't do in my H3. That doesn't mean that he couldn't on a harder trail.

However he did roll it on Rusty Nail.

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by RuggedH2

However he did roll it on Rusty Nail.

You got any pics or more info? That trail is the next one we want to do. I'm interest in which obstacle he did that on. The normal trail or was he playing off on the side? Maybe the "no left turn" obstacle?



Oh......and don't bring the H3s into this. Our comparison about H2 vs JK is a good discussion. But the H3 doesn't hold a candle to the H2 off road, so it's a moot point. That said, I haven't seen the H3 with the front locker, big engine, and cast iron diff. But you're point about SFA vs IFS is still relevant there!

[RuggedH2]

I wasn't with him when he rolled, I just heard about it through friends.

Chrysler is supposedly going to offer Dana 60's that bolt right on the JK for less money than many of the aftermarket suppliers.

My friend bought a Sahara on purpose, because he didn't like the E-lockers and plans to upgrade the axles, gears, and add ARB's instead. He put a 4" Terra Flex lift on already and is considering the 60's and an Atlas eventually.

I think I get what you have been saying. I never meant to imply that the H2 was as capable as the JK straight across. My point was for the trails I want to run (risk versus reward) the H2 does everything I need. If I get to the point where the risk equals towing a vehicle down....then I will buy a buggy (a good one someone else already invested retail price in parts ).

The trails we have already run in Moab put us in the top percentage of hard off road trails in the country now....you just want to run the next level, and that level does increase the risk. You'll be towing that thing behind the Burb soon.

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by RuggedH2

I think I get what you have been saying. I never meant to imply that the H2 was as capable as the JK straight across. My point was for the trails I want to run (risk versus reward) the H2 does everything I need. If I get to the point where the risk equals towing a vehicle down....then I will buy a buggy (a good one someone else already invested retail price in parts ).

Yup. I know where you are with that. I was in the exact same mode as you are now for 5 years. I've simply changed my interest into wheeling something that that's smaller, lighter, and more hard core. Less focus on comfort, more on offroad. But not to the point of buggydome......yet. It's not "better" by any objective standard. It's just different, and subjective. In Colorado, wheeling is not like Moab. There are tons of skinny trails, shelf roads, and trees below 11,000 feet. One of the things I got tired of was having a perfectly capably H2, but being slowed down for stupid things like fitting between trees!

[ROX]

I think you guys should just get an H1 It's nothing like either of those and it's a BLAST on the trails! Mine came with a chainsaw. I think I'll have it painted to match the brush guard and mount it there. What do you think?

[RuggedH2]

Love the sig line Rox!

Post some pics on the Moab pic thread in the H2 section, will ya?

I couldn't believe that under those nice seats and behind that premium dash.....how much that Alpha rig of yours felt like the Humvees I got to drive for the government.

[wpage]

I think I get what you have been saying. I never meant to imply that the H2 was as capable as the JK straight across. My point was for the trails I want to run (risk versus reward) the H2 does everything I need. If I get to the point where the risk equals towing a vehicle down....then I will buy a buggy (a good one someone else already invested retail price in parts ).

You should consider a H3!

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by wpage

If I get to the point where the risk equals towing a vehicle down....then I will buy a buggy (a good one someone else already invested retail price in parts ).

You should consider a H3!

LOL. Any trail in Moab runs the risk of towing a vehicle down. I've spent many hours towing H3s adn H2s down the trail. That's an idiotic statement.

Hey Neo, Bebe, Adam, Ken.......You should go buy buggies!

Oh yeah, Lyn......Trade in that H1. You got towed off a trail so you need to get a buggy too.

[ROX]

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

LOL

Oh yeah, Lyn......Trade in that H1. You got towed off a trail so you need to get a buggy too.

Hey! Nothing broke that was even related to wheeling. K? It's the first time I've ever been towed off the trail, (inmoab) and! I looked cool too!

If I was getting a buggy, I'd get this one anyway.
scorpion not some busted up Jeep that we piece together before and after every trip.... Where would I put all my shtuff? Tractor trailer?

[ROX]

Originally Posted by RuggedH2

I couldn't believe that under those nice seats and behind that premium dash.....how much that Alpha rig of yours felt like the Humvees I got to drive for the government.

Alpha! K' chow! Funny how you haven't mentioned how cool the JK interior is.........

[RuggedH2]

WPage,

Where do you wheel? For me it is Moab, mountains and rocks. My judgment is based on what I wheel.

My judgments are based on what I have seen and learned.

Solid axles are stronger, they will take more punishment. They do articulate more which can mean more traction. The Jeeps weigh significantly less which means less load on the moving parts to lift. Visibility is greater in the Jeeps than in the larger Hummers. Stronger, lighter, and smaller with more articulation.

Most of the reasons I like buggies over Jeeps, are the same reasons Jeeps have over Hummers (in rocks). That doesn't mean that Hummers are not capable, they are. It does mean that Hummers require spotters more. It is also a lot easier to change a broken half-shaft on a Hummer than to change a broken axle on a Jeep. I carry a spare half shaft in my H2, I don't think many Jeepers carry around spare axles.

I have an H3 also, I have wheeled it on some damn hard trails. I have wheeled several difficult trails with H3's (with drivers that really push their rigs and have the experience to do it). I have wheeled both Hummers on tough trails.

My H2 is lifted with 38" tall tires.....in my opinion it will outperform my H3 with 35's.

I have a front locker that will be installed this summer with new 4.56 gears. I have built up the steering system to deal with the larger tires, and I also have been talking to a custom fab place about modifying the rear suspension so the damn trailing arms don't hang down and get hung up.

I'm not trying to insult you here, it's not personal, it just is - how it is. How I feel about it doesn't change it. I wouldn't trade my Hummers for Jeeps, but to say my H2 is ready to run Pritchett Canyon is not right. It would require an H1 (or two of them) to drag me out if it broke, and the odds are that it would break. I have seen a JK with only a lift and 35's run Pritchett.

If you look at the premier rock crawlers, they all have solid axles. I was working much harder than my friend in Moab to get past the same obstacles......width, visability, suspension.

On the other hand, it was a good thing for him that I was there because he required a safety strap coming down Moab Rim after taking out a brake line, and I winched him off a monster boulder that was laying on his front drive shaft inches from his oil pan on Strike Ravine.

It does require a better driver to wheel a Hummer well on the same trails. Like COHummer said, one is not better, just different.

I'm happy with my Hummers, but I am objective.

[RuggedH2]

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

LOL. Any trail in Moab runs the risk of towing a vehicle down. I've spent many hours towing H3s adn H2s down the trail. That's an idiotic statement.

Hey Neo, Bebe, Adam, Ken.......You should go buy buggies!

Oh yeah, Lyn......Trade in that H1. You got towed off a trail so you need to get a buggy too.

The point I was originally trying to make......was that if I was going to tow a rig "down to Moab", I might as well bring a lightweight tube buggy. If I break that, at least I just have to get it back to the trailer - to get it home. If I was going to have a strictly rock rig, why not get one with all the advantages, for less money?

[wpage]

[quote=CO Hummer]LOL. Any trail in Moab runs the risk of towing a vehicle down. I've spent many hours towing H3s adn H2s down the trail. That's an idiotic statement.

Yes what you said!

Here in the East things are a little different. We mean what we say and usually we are on our own in the woods and the mud...

[RuggedH2]

OK.......what does this mean?

Originally Posted by wpage

With the advent of the current shift. Source of advent challemnge...
Watch your assests....,
Keep it short to your short hairs...

Or this?

Originally Posted by wpage

"My born agains are better than yours" David Koresh Jeep Lover!

Come on dude, the statement above was mis-interpreted.