In The Press

[Big Z]

This was a good write in Forbes.
www.forbes.com/2003/02/17/cx_mf_0217test.html

[Big Z]

This was a good write in Forbes.
www.forbes.com/2003/02/17/cx_mf_0217test.html

[Adam in CO]

The video clip is pretty cool. I love that the guy is driving around in his neighbor's yard. Not his. His neighbor's.

CO H2 Club Rocks!
aps101374@yahoo.com

[\"Hummer\", heh, heh]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Z:
This was a good write in Forbes.
http://www.forbes.com/2003/02/17/cx_...></BLOCKQUOTE>


Micahel:

"Which in sum goes something like this: Why don't all these people drive minivans or more fuel-efficient cars? Why do they need towering SUVs? And aren't towering SUVs killing other people in ordinary cars? Who are these hateful people? "

How come no SUV-backlash-backlash article to date has ever argued the merits of the actual issues, instead choosing the ad hominem approach of attacked those who make the arguments as "hateful" or "hypocritical" people?

I would suggest another way to look at it is: someone who is unconcerned that his overweight, less manoeverable vehicle is more likely to cause severe damage to a family driving a smaller car is hateful. Someone who doesn't care if his vehicle causes way more pollution and associated health problems in cities than would otherwise be necessary is hateful. And "hateful" would be a euphamism for someone who is oblivious to the implications to national security of the accelerated rate they are pumping cash into Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

Your article lauds the offroad capabilities of the H2 and dismisses the consequences to society, all the while, failing to look at the big picture. Yes, the H2 is great for off roading -- and I would highly recommend them to anyone who requires those extra capabilities to buy one.

However, every survey and study of drivers' use shows that the vast majority of SUV's are just used to tool around town and are never taken off road. Depending on which of the numerous surveys over the past 5 years you choose, I have found that between 90-99% of all SUV's are the mall-bound soccer mom variety.

Think about that. 90% of the extra pollution caused by SUV's and the extra oil consumed by them is unnecessary. This is not an argument for eliminating SUV's. But it is an extremely strong argument for taking the power to set fuel efficiency and safety standards out of the hands of oil and auto lobbiests.

TV ads used to target city dwellers who wanted to cultivate an "off-road adventurer" image. Today, H2 ads don't even pretend to be for off-road use. Their current ads showing a woman driving down a city street are targeting style as their selling point.

Thanks to apologists like you, fewer people will think about the consequences as they decide whether they really need the extra capabilities of a heavier vehicle, more money will continue to flow to the oil and auto lobbiests, who in turn will continue to set their own standards so they can continue selling heavier, higher margin vehicles to soccer moms.

Jason Freund

[InfamousTeeDog]

Alright Jason, obviously you way too much time on your hands to be posting stuff like this. I hope you have a large shovel because your whole premise smells of bull****. This site is for HUMMER enthusiasts not environmental peckerwoods like yourself who have nothing better to do than voice an opinion about a media sensationalized subject. The great thing about America is that you can buy any product you want regardless of how useful or useless it is. If you don't like what other people are buying, I would suggest moving to another country because people like you make the rest of us sick. Why don't you do yourself and us a favor...pull your lip over your head and swallow.

"Honesty is the best policy...unless you are really good at lying."

[SJ]

Jason:

I don't know where you're getting your propaganda, but SUVs are safer than cars!!!! It is a complete farse that SUVs are not safe. The whole anti-SUV campaign is pushed by the Left Wing Socio-Nazis that love to attack anything that does not fit within their packaged agenda.

- The fact is that only 4% of accidents result in a rollover. Yes, SUVs have a higher center of gravity than cars, but most collisions are front and side impact where SUVs are able to absorb impact better than the average car.

- SUVs require greater braking distances and are less maneuverable than the average car; none of us can argue against these facts. Drivers of SUVs compensate for these attributes by allowing more distance from front bumper to leading vehicles and by anticipating speed vs. stopping.

MOST IMPORTANTLY:What folks like you fail to realize is that we live in a consumer driven economy. Consumers decide what suits their needs best and the people have spoken: Trucks and SUVs are outselling cars as you read this! If you don't care for a free-market economy, then Kim Jong Il has a place for you in North Korea!

I saw a guy driving a Toyota Prius yesterday with the license pate IH8SUVS. This guy is probably looking at my H2 and thinking I'm a jerk for buying a 10-12mpg rig. Well, I'm not exactly fond of his putting another Japanese car on our roads.

The difference is that I respect his and your rights and I don't go out of my way to push my agenda or be offensive to my fellow American. You and Toyota boy are the same in my book because you have to protest everything that shouts freedom of choice or "USA."

If you'll excuse me, I'm about to drive home in my American SUV/Truck then watch bull riding and have an American whiskey on the rocks.

CLOROX

[\"Hummer\", heh, heh]

"This site is for HUMMER enthusiasts not environmental peckerwoods like yourself who have nothing better to do than voice an opinion about a media sensationalized subject. The great thing about America is that you can buy any product you want regardless of how useful or useless it is."

Well, useful or useless is one thing, but in many, many cases, the government has been able to step in to impose controls on harmful products and business practices.

Defining what is acceptable is always an ongoing process, but to date, that line has been drawn exclusively by the hands of auto and oil lobbiests.

Only now that SUV's are getting bigger for the sake of being the biggest, and reaching critical mass in numbers, are their flaws coming to light.

Short sighted consumers and industry lobbiests will always try to oppose changes that work against their own special interest, but I think everyone acknowledges that the days of unrestricted regulations and governmental loopholes are numbered.

That brings me to point number two -- another great thing about America is freedom of speech. Obviously, that's something you don't appreciate, but most Americans believe it's a fundamental requirement for a successful democracy.

In this case, I find that to be particularly true, because without people raising awareness, consumers would continue to choose solely based on stylistic concerns, completely oblivious to the larger picture; and lobbiests might otherwise be able to postpone meaningful standards debate indefinately.

-Jason

[Klaus]

Jason Freund,


I think I can speak for most of the "Hateful" and "Short sighted consumers" on this site by making this statement to you:

When you get home tonight, I hope your momma crawls out from under the porch and bites you on the leg.

[\"Hummer\", heh, heh]

SJ: "I don't know where you're getting your propaganda, but SUVs are safer than cars!!!! It is a complete farse that SUVs are not safe. The whole anti-SUV campaign is pushed by the Left Wing Socio-Nazis that love to attack anything that does not fit within their packaged agenda."

Why is it that so many people who argue polarizing topics evoke Hitler and Nazism so casually? Kids these days. Well, nevermind that, another day, perhaps.

"- The fact is that _only 4% of accidents result in a rollover._ Yes, SUVs have a higher center of gravity than cars, but most collisions are front and side impact where _SUVs are able to absorb impact better than the average car_."

When you talk about safety, there are really two issues to consider: safety for the SUV driver, and safety for everyone else.

For the SUV driver, he has the benefit of extra protection and pays a slight penalty with higher rollover rates. Fair enough.

The problem is that there will always be a huge proportion of small cars on the road, and when you have big cars hitting little cars, overall road safety, which I think is a fair metric, takes a nose dive.

- Collisions are more likely to occur if more vehicles have slower stopping distance and less manouverability.

- Collisions are going to be more deadly for the driver of a smaller vehicle, even at slow speeds, if the other car is extremely large

- The chances of a collision between a small and large car increases with the number of larger cars on the road.


SJ: "Drivers of SUVs compensate for these attributes by allowing more distance from front bumper to leading vehicles and by anticipating speed vs. stopping."

That's great, but what about the case where you're mindfully driving through an intersection under the speed limit, and some nut runs a red light, causing you to swerve to miss him, but broadside a honda accord, killing the driver and one passenger?

Don't you think that even though the accident wasn't your fault, you might regret the fact that if you'd been in a slightly smaller car those two people might still be alive? I know the passengers of the accord would.

SJ: "What folks like you fail to realize is that we live in a consumer driven economy. Consumers decide what suits their needs best and the people have spoken: Trucks and SUVs are outselling cars as you read this! If you don't care for a free-market economy, then Kim Jong Il has a place for you in North Korea!"

I fully realize this. I have nothing against a free economy, I just want consumers to make better educated decisions, and government to do it's part to ensure that consumers are given better choices.

"I saw a guy driving a Toyota Prius yesterday with the license pate IH8SUVS. This guy is probably looking at my H2 and thinking I'm a jerk for buying a 10-12mpg rig. Well, I'm not exactly fond of his putting another Japanese car on our roads."

You can be all for capitalism and choice when it suits your interests, but then don't complain when you see that the consequences of all those dollars spent voting for feebler US standards has put Japan at a huge technological advantage.

"The difference is that I respect his and your rights and I don't go out of my way to push my agenda or be offensive to my fellow American."

I'm truely not trying to be offensive. And I sincerely apologize if I have offended anyone.

-Jason

[This message was edited by "Hummer", heh, heh on February 21, 2003 at 10:21 PM.]

[\"Hummer\", heh, heh]

Klaus: "I think I can speak for most of the "Hateful" and "Short sighted consumers" on this site by making this statement to you:

When you get home tonight, I hope your momma crawls out from under the porch and bites you on the leg."

Even though I enjoy good natured jibes in the midst of serious conversation, I'll be reserving replies for posts that also include substantive content.

Some other time?

-Jason

[Klaus]

I was not trying to be good natured. You are a Socialist idiot that can't recognize when you are not welcome.

Look, this forum is for people that enjoy the decision they have made in purchasing an H2. We don't need some sniveling bed-wetter saying we did not make an “educated decision”.

If you really want to do something for your country, move to France.

As Burt Reynolds said in Smokey and the Bandit, “Do the letters FO mean anything to you?”

[Zing]

Loved the video portion of this article. This was a good find. I thought something the reviewer said towards the end of the article was appropriate given our new friend posting here. Regarding improvements in technology over time...

"In about ten years SUVs like the Hummer will actually be relatively rare and whiners will have to find another bandwagon to climb aboard."

We respect your right to express yourself Jason Freund, but I cannot think of a more futile task than presenting your whining here. We really don't care. Your forum name is also insulting. I recommend no one reply to this jerk.

[\"Hummer\", heh, heh]

"In about ten years SUVs like the Hummer will actually be relatively rare and whiners will have to find another bandwagon to climb aboard."

I look forward to it, but consdering that we need to import roughly 1M barrels per day from Iraq and Saudi Arabia to pay for excess oil consumption, and considering Washington and Detroit's history for the past 20 years in successfully blocking reform, I think it still makes sense to give them a little encouragement, rather than just wait for it to happen.

"We respect your right to express yourself Jason Freund, but I cannot think of a more futile task than presenting your whining here. We really don't care. Your forum name is also insulting. I recommend no one reply to this jerk."

You understand the name is supposed to be a joke, right? Unlike Klaus and Toaster, I don't mean to personally attack anyone here.

Jason

[Klaus]

Member Profile for "Hummer", heh, heh

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[InfamousTeeDog]

Jason I enjoy attacking you. Because in the real world you can get things done face to face. And obviously a scared little bitch like yourself hides in the closet until the new issues of Better Homes and Gardens comes out. Not to mention pleasuring his male companion Jaques while downing his bottle of French wine. Thats where you really need to move you silly whining bitch.

"Honesty is the best policy...unless you are really good at lying."

[\"Hummer\", heh, heh]

ATX: "Jason I enjoy attacking you. Because in the real world, [rant, rant, rant...]"

Ya, that and because you can't think of any actual arguments in response to the points I've made here.

-Jason

[SJ]

Jason:

We've tried being perfectly civil with you and that didn't seem to penetrate your Socialist mind-set. Some may question why I "label" you as such. It is because you remain blind to one overlying premise:

Free-market economies are driven by the consumer. Supply is driven by demand in the public domain. If the majority of people did not need/want SUVs, then consumers woud not buy them and hence manufacturers would not make them. This is the beauty of an economic system driven by the people!

I understand that you want to educate all of us in the ways of being more "responsible." Fine, I'm an open-minded person.

All that I ask is the following: As a fellow American, respect our rights to make choices as adults. If I decide to have a Hummer that I drive 2 days per week or when snow conditions are bad, then let it be. I'll gladly adopt a Hydrogen powered car (to park alongside my SUV) when they become available to the public at a reasonable price.

I believe, the internal combustion engine will have long been replaced as the norm, before oil reserves are depleted.

Worst-case scenario; if we deplete our oil reserves, then we all have to go back to bicycles, horses, and walking - you win!

Lower emissions, better fuel efficiency - heck, we all want that. At the same time, I also want the freedom to enjoy certain pleasures in life (e.g. my H2). Collectively, we will get there, but the Hydrogen powered Hummer is just a blip on the horizon right now.

[\"Hummer\", heh, heh]

SJ, what I've already written is probably 50% in alignment with what you said, but I think I can do better. As I said before, I agree that for those who need the capability, I have no argument; and for those who understand the arguments, yet decide, at the end of the day, that they still want a big SUV, I would respect that. In fact, I don't believe owning an SUV and promoting responsible safety and efficiency debate are necessarily mutually exclusive.

But labeling market reform as "socialism" is a stretch. I think it would be easy to show that unadulterated capitalism, uninhibited by any outside actors, can be very harmful to society. There are innumerable examples in our history where the government has stepped in to regulate products and business practices; yet I don't consider the US to be a socialist country.

The problem is that in the case of SUV's, the government's regulatory hands have been tied by auto and oil lobbiests who are not beholden to consumer's true desires, but to their own bottom line. In fact, a Time/CNN poll this month showed that 70% of consumers wanted Congress to enact better mileage standards for SUV's, yet lobbiests have spent tens of millions dollars to ensure that meaningful standards reform remains stalled.

Unless consumers apply some kind of pressure, the cycle of industry-sponsored efficiency and safety regulations will continue.

Because there are two sides to the payola equation, you don't necessarily have to give up your SUV to encourage the industry to consumers' true wishes. Those who reconsider their SUV purchase will help the supply side, but the rest can compensate by applying pressure to the demand side -- writing letters, and generally raising awareness to the point where it becomes too expensive for lobbiests' contributions to outweigh public opinion.

I agree that one way or another, the problem will eventually take care of itself. Oil extraction will either become prohibitively expensive or decades of slow, reluctant self-regulation will eventually add up to a satisfactory solution.

What is at stake, in the decision of whether to take the 5 year or the 20 year road is a substantial boost to the economy by switching to cheaper alternative fuel sooner, the extra years of waiting for significant improvement to overall air quality and road safety, and several billion barrels of unneeded Middle Eastern oil.

-Jason

[Klaus]

Socialist. Heil Jason!

Member Profile for "Hummer", heh, heh

Date Registered: January 22, 2003
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