Last Sunday's U.S. Grand Prix

[GeorgeSSSS]

I'd like to hear opinions about the debacle last week at Indianapolis. Here's my opinion.

Michelin is to blame for failing to provide proper equipment despite 5 years of engineering experience at the track. FIA handled the situation correctly by not letting Michelin off the hook. If FIA didn't take the position they did, Michelin and every other supplier would be pushing the envelope in coming years and then look to get "taken off the hook" every time they miscalculated. We'd get last minute chicanes (which are dangerous)and/or some cars not racing for points (which isn't fair to fans) and/or who knows what. Although Sunday was a black day for F1, it averted many more black days in the future.

George SSSS

[GeorgeSSSS]

I'd like to hear opinions about the debacle last week at Indianapolis. Here's my opinion.

Michelin is to blame for failing to provide proper equipment despite 5 years of engineering experience at the track. FIA handled the situation correctly by not letting Michelin off the hook. If FIA didn't take the position they did, Michelin and every other supplier would be pushing the envelope in coming years and then look to get "taken off the hook" every time they miscalculated. We'd get last minute chicanes (which are dangerous)and/or some cars not racing for points (which isn't fair to fans) and/or who knows what. Although Sunday was a black day for F1, it averted many more black days in the future.

George SSSS

[HummerNewbie]

Sorry George, but I have to admit, don't know what happened at the U.S. Grand Prix. What did Michelin do?

[KenP]

Michelin (a French company ) didn't supply the right tire for the speeds in turn three. They lobbied for a chican to slow the cars down. To protest the situation, all but 6 teams parked their cars. Ferrari ran the race, won, and was criticized.

The problem with adding the chican is it's against the rules. The cars are supposed to race on the same track they qualified on. By adding a chican, the track is not the same so they would have to re-qualify. Out of the question.

Here's a comparison made on Wind Tunnel: If One NFL team shows up to a wet, muddy field with the wrong cleats, they don't get to protest the other team and have changes made.

The fans were the losers over the weekend. However, F1 will be the loser over the long term. To pull this just when F1 was trying to make new inroads into the States, stupid.

It's going to get uglier before it gets better.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CAR_F1_MICHELIN?...=2005-06-21-08-42-16

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CAR_F1_FIASCO?SI...=2005-06-20-15-54-43

[GeorgeSSSS]

Ken was able to respond to HummerNewbie's question faster than I did. Below is some additional background.

Ken's opinion (above) is certainly one shared by very many knowledgable people.

There are ten two-car teams. 7 teams have Michelin tires, 3 have Bridgestone. Michelin's tires couldn't withstand the stress of the last banked turn and Michelin asked to have a chicane added to slow the cars -- -- which would benefit only Michelin. The request was rejected by FIA (race organizers). The Michelin teams then offered to run with a chicane, but not be eligible to score championship points -- which would mean the cars' position on the track (what the fans see) would be meaningless. FIA told them to simply go slower in the last turn which they refused to do. These cars cost about $10 - $14 million each, they have unbelievable telemetry, and could do it IMO.

All 20 cars went around for the parade lap, but rather than proceeding to the starting grid, all 14 Michelin cars pulled into the pits. Only six cars ran the race. A major embarrassment for a world class sport I've been following for more than 40 years. Some people came from as far as South America to see the race. All the fans got ripped off.

Best regards,

George SSSS

[DRTYFN]

And the funny thing is that this is the 6th F1 race on this track, so it's not like Michelin was caught by surprise. Michelin was well aware of the track & the corner in question AND that the track had recently been resurfaced. Their tires had been running on the track for tons of practice laps, so their weak-ass Frenchie excuses don't hold any water.
They(Michelin) were also one of the parties that lobbied for the one set of tire per qualifying & race rule because they thought they could rub Bridgestone's nose in caca. Nobody said BOO when Bridgestone had tire problems awhile back and you sure as hell didn't see Bridgestone whining and throwing a tantrum for a last second rules change to accommodate them.

George, as a long time fan, you probably share my sentiment that Formula One, as we know it, is dying. With all of the rule changes(read "handicapping") in the last two years, F1 is barely ahead of CART. I can't believe Bernie has taken the pinnacle of all motorsports, where almost all major advances in the automotive industry are either created, advanced or perfected, and turned it into just another handicapping race.

Formula One used to be a very Darwinian place where the fittest teams won and the weak aspired to win by evolving into a better team or didn't and died out.

For anyone that wants to find out more about F1 here's a couple of my favorite sites:
http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html
http://www.formula1.com/

[GeorgeSSSS]

Drty: IMO the second and third paragraphs of your post nail the real problem. I can't add a word to it.

George

[HummerNewbie]

George, Ken and Drty,

Thanks for bringing me up to speed on it. I do love most forms of motor sports but don't get a chance to really follow them that well. I am so glad I am not one of those fans that paid a fortune to go to the race just to have it screwed up by the French

[ATRH2]

Here is an article from Autoracing1.com that
brings up some interesting thoughts about
this all being more of a power play between the FIA and the GPWC.


"There has been a lot written over the last several days about the Indy Fiasco, but I have a slightly different opinion on what Indy was all about. It will be interesting to see what the FIA will do to the seven teams on Thursday, who have the ultimate responsibility for not running, and to Michelin, who at the least are suspected of lying, and certainly of aiding and abetting the teams who did not run.

I think the last minute addition of a chicane would have been insane and was really just a diversion for the media to focus on. CanAm did exactly that at Charlotte Motor Speedway when it was the 5-liter CanAm Series. They had suspension problems, and if memory serves me correctly, tire problems, too, with the banking (sound familiar?).

The hay bale chicane they used in the backstretch at the last minute was a disaster and again if memory serves, was virtually non-existent at race end. They had a "Chief Steward in Charge of the Chicane" (Watts Hill) at the chicane and in touch with the Chief Steward at the time to try to make it work, he did his best but it didn't.

I am surprised that F1's Chief Steward, Charlie Whiting, didn't tell the teams, "You race or else," with the 'or else' the threat of loss of all season points, and fines per car up to the maximum fine limit ($500,000?) each. I strongly doubt he has that authority, but it would have been a good strategic move and perhaps have gotten teams to break ranks and put on a show for the spectators.

Nowhere have I seen it mentioned, but my inquisitive mind tells me there is more behind this than tires. Most of the seven teams, partially or totally owned by auto manufacturers, have been posturing against the FIA and Bernie for well over a year, threatening to run their own series when the present Concorde agreement ends after 2007. And today AutoRacing1.com got wind that Minardi might be bought by BMW, bring them into the GPWC fold. Minardi's team boss, Paul Stoddart, has been very outspoken against Max Mosley, who supports Bernie Ecclestone and the current F1 regime.

That this group seriously damaged Max Mosley, the FIA, and Bernie Ecclestone last Sunday, does not go unnoticed by me. And it is not just a coincidence in my honest opinion. But like the "oval cartel," such a cabal would be devilishly hard to prove. As of this (Tuesday) morning there has not been one peep out of any of the seven teams, complaining that Michelin did not supply tires adequate to do the job, especially after Michelin had been warned in writing by the FIA on June 1st.

Just the opposite, Frank Williams was quoted just today "The teams were desperate to race and put on a good show,“ says the Englishman, "Racing in North America is of fundamental importance to Formula One’s commercial health." The BMW WilliamsF1 Team also supported the decision of all Michelin-supplied racing teams to waive the chance of scoring World Championship points. Williams declared, "We wanted at least to entertain the fans and we were prepared to let go of the points and give them all to Ferrari. I cannot stress enough how disappointed we were." He went on to place the blame squarely on Max Mosley.

Again, another diversion to make it sound good?

An issue has been raised about whether the diamond grinding the Speedway did to the asphalt caused the Michelin tire failures. The Speedway of course says no. Michelin did not have problems at Indy in previous years. Why now all of a sudden and why were we only told about a few problems with the tires throughout the weekend. Was it just a coincidence that only the two Toyotas had real issues and could that have been caused by chassis setup or too low tire pressures? Was it not said that Michelin advised the teams what to do for the tires to be safe after the Schumacher accident, i.e. use proper air pressures. Then that was silenced.

During the course of the weekend, bulletins were issued stating how the FIA had measured, weighed and otherwise examined competing cars and found them in compliance with its rules. The tire problems experienced were limited to one team, Toyota. Up and down pit road, it was widely discussed that not only did Toyota, but other teams as well, ignore tire manufacturer’s inflation-pressure recommendations. It was made known by Michelin that the problem experienced by Ricardo Zonta Friday was due to under-inflation of their tires, and it can be presumed Ralf Schumacher’s Friday crash was for the same reason. No other Michelin-shod cars had any trouble that I heard of.

Why then were there no complaints from the teams about Michelin? None of the Michelin teams came out and made a fuss about blaming Michelin for what happened. And how come nobody broke ranks? It is said that several teams had no tire problems as monitored during practice, yet they also refused to race. Why? What was so powerful as to keep them all off the track?

Also, I think Bernie has wanted to go back to a single tire make for a while anyway. Notice, too, that most of the breakaway GPWC teams are Michelin shod...perhaps Bernie got wind that the French tire maker was going to become the official tire supplier to GPWC. Say au revoir to Mr. Bibendum after this year if our sources are correct that the FIA will kick Michelin out of F1 after this year. Perhaps Bernie's side sticking a dagger into the GPWC by way of Michelin?

Is it a coincidence that the FIA announced radical rules changes for 2008 effectively copying Champ Car on many things. The GPWC is dead set against going to such extremes. You don't see them proposing rules anywhere near what the FIA proposed. The press release by the FIA probably galled Ron Dennis who spend a small fortune on his lavish technology center for the sole purpose of building state-of-the-art race cars.

And last, who were the Stewards of the Meet at this event, and what is their experience? By the Code, the Stewards have an awful lot to say about the running of the race, and yet there hasn't been a whisper about them, so far. Wonder what they were doing while all this was playing out?

The bottom line is that I believe what was at play at Indy last Sunday goes far deeper than most of you realize, that the safety issue card was played for all its worth. And in the chess match between the current regime and the GPWC, the race fans and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway became the pawns.

Just as I feel the France family used Tony George as a pawn to help divide and conquer CART and open wheel racing in the USA, so too might Mr. George have been an unknowing victim in the war between Max, Bernie and the breakaway GPWC.

A conspiracy or just my wild imagination? You decide."

Autoracing1.com

[GeorgeSSSS]

The person responsible for the problem has been identified.

[Klaus]

IMO, NASCAR has gone down hill in the last 30 years. It used to be that what was raced on Sunday had to be sold on Monday (at least 500 cars). That's why the Hemi engine and the Mopar winged cars were sold to the public in the 60s and 70s.

Hell, now you see front wheel drive cars with 4 cylinder engines raced as V8 rear wheel cars.

[GeorgeSSSS]

I began watching F1 in the 1960s. The F1 drivers of that era -- -- Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart, Jack Brabham, Dennis Hulme, Bruce McLaren (I know I've left out some great ones) -- -- were something special. They drove F1, F2, Indy 500, Le Mans, Can Am, touring sedans, and whatever else came along. Some are dead and some are still with us. They were at all times sportsmen, gentlemen and professionals. They would have never permitted a fiasco as occurred last Sunday.

I do not think we will see their likes again.

George SSSS

[KenP]

I love to watch NASCAR. My favorite races are the Daytona 500, both Bristol races (Love the night races), both Martinsville, both Richmond and both Talladega (the scariest race of the lot). Favorite driver is Jr. and anyone but J Gordon and Jimmie Johnson.

[DRTYFN]

There have been so many POS changes to the rules, but this one really really pisses me off: going from V10 engines back to V8s!!!!
The tire issue is great because it throws a spotlight on the idiocy of using one set of tires for both qualifying & the race and grooving the tires.
So many of the handicapping measures and rule changes have(IMO) put the drivers in dangers way.

F1, as it is today, is a disgusting joke(one that doesn't involve a Dirty Sanchez or farting). F1 used to be the undisputed pinnacle of ALL motorsports. It was always exciting to watch as one team would win at one race and then the other teams would up the ante and improve their car and win the next race. Now with all of the restrictions on tires, fuel, aerodynamics, weight, electronics, etc, it is no longer fun to watch. I used to watch every race. I think I've only seen maybe 3-4 races this season.

I am really looking forward to seeing the break-away league form in '08. Screw Bernie!!!

[Christa]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KenP:
I love to watch NASCAR. My favorite races are the Daytona 500, both Bristol races (Love the night races), both Martinsville, both Richmond and both Talladega (the scariest race of the lot). Favorite driver is Jr. and anyone but J Gordon and Jimmie Johnson. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not big on F1, I'd have to agree with Ken, I love NASCAR! There is nothing like the sound of a Cup car engine! Nascar Sunday is a religion at our house and is never to be messed with!
I do like Jr alot, but he's having a tough time this year. My husband, son and myself are in a race league with friends and some others and Jimmie has been a big point getter for me. I'm in 5th place against a bunch of guys! Even though there's only 24 in this league I'm still pretty proud of myself We start the 2nd half in a week or two then we start over for points. If you're interested in joining us go to
http://www.greengreengreen.us/ and sign up! It's a $20 buy-in. High score for each week wins $10 and top 3 at the end of half is in the year end money (not sure how much?). It's not alot of dollars, mostly bragging rights, but it's fun!
I love the short tracks and night races also. Lots of wrecks and tempers do flair! I keep crossing my fingers that I'll get to see Busch take one in the nose again!

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KenP:
I love to watch NASCAR. My favorite races are the Daytona 500, both Bristol races (Love the night races), both Martinsville, both Richmond and both Talladega (the scariest race of the lot). Favorite driver is Jr. and anyone but J Gordon and Jimmie Johnson. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I'll pretty much ditto that down to the letter. I don't much care for the rainbow warrior and his protege'

My 4 year old daughter has kinda gotten into it because of Edwards (known around our house as "flipper").

[h2co-pilot]

I'm a closet Nascar fan, but I really only like to watch the last 20 laps or so. #48 is my current man- well basically the whole Hendrick Motorsports team.

F1 is still my favorite, I hated to see what happened over the weekend but at least the Schumacher team drove. I must be too young or just out of it (imagine that ) to realize the downfall it has taken ( not this past weekend but overall)- but I still think it is way better than Nascar.

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by h2co-pilot:
I'm a closet Nascar fan, but I really only like to watch the last 20 laps or so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Those are nearly identical comments from my wife.

As far as the Hendrick Team comment. That's just because you are a sucker for the drama, huh. Your all fuzzy about the whole team because of last year's tragedy.

[h2co-pilot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
Your all fuzzy about the whole team because of last year's tragedy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's because I'm a woman and they are the only team with most of their teeth.