Dyno Tomorrow!!!

[CONRAD II]

Tomorrow I'm going to "Engine Logistics" in Houston. They are one of the few places I've found that has an actual full time 4wd dyno. http://www.enginelogics.com/

They seem professional to me. Have any of you guys ever heard of them? I'll take some pics and post the results tomorrow.

[dkhummerh2]

cool. are you running an s/c

[CONRAD II]

Originally Posted by dkhummerh2

cool. are you running an s/c

Blower, headers, and rockers

[HUMMERcustoms.com/TAZ]

Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Conrad

Hope all goes well. If while doing the test would you check into doing it with front drive shaft off and with it on. It is a question I have been wanting to answer myself and may get to this next year. I would like to see the HP/tq difference is. If they charge extra I would be glad to pay for it if they will be resonable. It is a question that has been wondered about for years now.

Dragon and I are looking at land now to buy seperate from his shop to build a tuning center which will have a real AWD dyno in it. We have been planning as well as collecting finances to do it. There is no one we can find that has a real AWD dyno, last look was within 700 miles of us. Take LR, AR and that includes allot of territory.

If possible get me an answer to this as it has bugged me for a number of years now. It is not hard or very time consuming to drop front drive shaft. Many besides me have thought about doing our dyno runs that way and this would tell many whether if it should be done that way. Sorry to ask You to be the test subject but, I tried to do the dyno on a Dynojet and it was not even wide enough with stock tires to handle the width of OUR H2's.

Go get em and I hope You get this in time to do the full AWD run and then the front drive shaft drop tests while you are there.

Good Luck,

TAZ

[CONRAD II]

DONE!!! I should have made a video but here are some pics I took with my blackberry. I am also going to scan my results and post them. I have a supercharger with 8lbs of boost, rockers, and headers as my only performance upgrades. It maxed out at 319.9 hp from the rear wheel. I made three runs total. For everyone who is thinking that my supercharger isn't working properly, all I can say is that I have a lot more power than I did stock. I really believe that from the rear wheel our stock hp must be extremely low! I really don't mind that I didn't hit 600 hp even though I thought it would be closer to 500.

[OrangeCrush]

Did I miss somthing? I know the loss of HP through the drivetrain on an automatic on a 2WD car is about 20% so I don't know what it is on a 4WD but 319HP???

I thought the 6.0 was rated at roughly 325HP. If you gain roughly 40 percent, that would put you at roughly 455HP

Guessimating 30% drivetrain loss would be...well, EXACTLY 319HP at the rear wheels.

Okay, so I guess that's about right.

Sounds low doesn't it? I know mine is waaay faster than a stock H2.... Now I know why the stock one's are such pigs.

Mark

[CONRAD II]

I can tell you guys one thing... It was AWESOME to see the beast on that dyno. I don't care if I didn't make 500 horses, watching the test take place was worth the disappointment! I'm going to run it again and take a video!!!!!!!!!

[Tex_h2]

How much did it cost?

[HUMMERcustoms.com/TAZ]

Orange

I have had a Hummer service manager who is into racing etc. He said total loss to the ground should not be over 15% and closer to 10% total from the training he got at the factory. I do not know what happened with Conrad unless tuning is not quite right but, I figure with rough calculations Conrad has to be running 400HP at the ground. Consider I know if he is using the tuner from Magnuson there is another 40HP on the table, if a full catback another 20Hp maybe more, electric fans 20Hp, cooler T-stat maybe 5HP, cold air intake 15HP, and say just misc. stuff I'm forgetting say 25HP OH and Royal Purple engine oil 10HP then extra 30HP for changing to Purple synthetic in everything else His potential is rounding the numbers 540HP at the wheels.

I would check my boost gauge, could be wrong. I had to exchange one not right. I was instead of 5lbs. of boost with Magnuson kit pulley 6.5lbs. boost. What is the fuel pressure? Run a guage so you know. Well really you do not need to as long as a guy is happy with the performance and i would bet money if I were a betting man Conrad is happy with his H2 now. I have yet to talk to anyone that has not with just the straight kit and boost guage. Just from my short experience, well over 3 years, I would find it hard to believe at 8lbs. of boost Conrad is not running 450HP + at the wheels. Most all of us get excited including myself and over estimate then get a little disappointed when the numbers come out. I tell everyone the same thing I read an article about how NASCAR now uses the newest G-Tech Pro that they can download info to their computer to check G force, lateral force, HP, torque, and other info and they are within a tolerance of either side of perfect something like 1.5%. NASCAR had been using the $10,000 acceliromator (spelling) anyway they use gravity, weight of vehicle, and so to tune and setup the cars because they cannot haul dyno's around plus they want real action info to set up the suspinsion so on and so on. The new G-tech Pro RR is $295.00. With a small dyno for tuners is all that will fit as well as a protable dyno at a show Dragon put his big turbo deisel 4X4 truck called the tow pig which pulled a 400HP and 800 ft. of torque then the portable rig was within tolerance.

I and Dragon have been studying dyno's for over 2 years now looking at what we want to put in hopefully this coming year on property he and i will own so families cannot get in Our way. Many have a dyno that has one set of wheels running on free wheeling rollers and not getting true AWD numbers. One reason Conrad could be low. H2's have a rougly 40/60 split in Hp and torque to the ground with larger number at the rear. It had been thought that with front not having any pull the sensors would do it's thing and shift more to rear. That is one reason i had hoped to catch Conrad and have him get a pull with front drive shaft removed. We will try it later. I have not heared of the company Conrad used and are most likely great. I would like to know what brand of dyno they had if they had EDDY BRAKES for front and rear wheels. if not it was not a true AWD dyno. Many shops cut cost of the dyno by about $20,000 to $30,000 by running free wheeling rollers for front axle.

I know with water/meth. inj., dynatec full catback system from headers out the back open Flowmaster super 40's with true dual exhaust using twin mufflers and then custom tune and so on. I pulled before SC or custom tune with electric fans, headers catback, T-stat, as well as other minor things. I did not have Royal Purple in yet and pulled 400HP on the ground easily with 12 real time runs from 0 to 60, 6 into the wind and 6 with the wind. The G-Tech engineer said I went way more than needed but, I wanted a good sample. They recommend only 3 to 5 runs.

Anyway Conrad have fun but, I really think You are pulling more HP and torque than 320HP. Take 320 at flywheel minus 15% (Ser. manger said could be even 10% loss as the H2 was built to be very stingy on HP loss) is roughly 275HP at ground add the SC and i know they add 125HP. That is 400HP at the groung there. With rockers and headers especially You gained another 25HP plus at the wheels 425HP.

So they have what they got I just know and have spent to much time over the last 3 plus years studying the H2's power potentialy etc. for me to believe you got 320HP at the wheels. It is not anything to spit at but, to tell me that with SC, rockers, and headers you gained only roughly 50HP over flywheel HP. Does not add up but, I have been in hospital a few weeks ago and maybe I'm not thinking clearly but, it is hard to imagine I cannot recall something i have studied like I was goinf to get a masters at it which in my mind I look at it that way because at some point customers are going to trust people i personally train before i will ever step away from the dyno and not be running the pulls myself. I think of other thing sto ask like did they have a good big fan feeding the radiator with plenty of cooling and i could go on. Anyone that ever comes to Our shop will get the best dyno pulls they could ask for. I will make sure of that.

GOOD LUCK BUDDY and have allot of fun!!!!

TAZ

[MVR 155]

There is no way that driveline loss with the H2 is only 10-15%, a manual trans rear drive car has a loss of approximately 15% (using a C5 corvette for exaple.... I have alot of experience with these cars on a dyno). With the size of the wheels, auto trans, AWD etc.... I wouldnt expect driveline loss to be anything less than 20-25%

I agree the numbers sound a bit low..... what was the rear wheel torque and what kind of dyno was it, for instance a dynojet and mustang dyno will produce different readings everytime (mustang is always quite a bit lower). Depending on the operator correction factors could make a huge difference. I would make sure you are getting your full 8lbs of boost (as TAZ said). Conservatively you should be getting a minimum of around 100rwhp with 8lbs of boost and even with 20% loss calculated you are only getting around 60rwhp. Im sure it feels great but you paid alot of $$ for that set up so you should try to get the most from it.

[CONRAD II]

Originally Posted by Tex_h2

How much did it cost?

$75 bucks total for three runs. In my opinion very reasonable!

[MSeeb]

If you have a custom tune done to it, you'll probably be able to squeak a little more out of lt. After Lingenfelter tuned mine, it dyno'ed out at 382 hp with around 437 ft lbs of torque.

[HUMMERcustoms.com/TAZ]

MVR I respect Your experience and ideas on the loss to the ground on an H2.

I know what I was told by dealer service manager that had been awarded many times one of the best in his region. He has contact with Hummer engineers and i have talked with them on other things since I'm working to see how much Hp/trq I can get out of the 6.0L with no enternal work and no heads. Lig. has an offer for some heads when I'm ready sponsored. I have been inside , outside, and around a H2 as much as i can to learn all i can. I will push boost to 18lbs. hopeing it does not blow. I hope to be well enough to have it ready to go and take the one mile speed trap record away from a Tahoe that holds it right now next spring. HPTUNERS.com is a sponsor and i have studied as hard as i can on how to get out of the rig all i can. Nice thing is I have a new motor waiting if i blow it while being careful. I have allot of obsticales to overcome and hope i can figure them out.

I agree with Your assement on the low numbers on the dyno. I know though You can use the 10% to 15% on the H2 because of the setup i was told by dealer and engineers. I found it hard to believe but, i proved it to myself usimg the G-Tech Pro and having the rig weighed at the truck stop so i could not mistake that which is one of the components in the formula that the
G-tech needs. I always came up with 13% loss on my rig. Now You know as well as i no 2 rigs are the same and i agree there will be H2's with 20% loss at the ground.

Keep up the good work helping us to stay on our tows. Your numbers cool so let's both agree on Conrad something is not right. Trust me just a little Bud on the HP loss to the ground. I tried hard to make my info acurate but, I'm not so proud as I could mess up in my trials or miss led but, I do not think that is the case. I hope with Your tuning experience You will be able to help the forum.

Good Luck Bud,

Oh, by the way what do You think of the Dynocom dyno's? So far they have the best price on AWD with eddy brake on each drum. I think we will pit our dyno but, not sure. What are Your thoughts on pit or the drive on then lift type? Dragon and the sales manager are at Sema this week picking up some accounts and talking to dyno companies to see what is the latest.
Thanks!!

TAZ

[TXSUT]

Originally Posted by MVR 155

There is no way that driveline loss with the H2 is only 10-15%, a manual trans rear drive car has a loss of approximately 15% (using a C5 corvette for exaple.... I have alot of experience with these cars on a dyno). With the size of the wheels, auto trans, AWD etc.... I wouldnt expect driveline loss to be anything less than 20-25%

MVR, I have enough experience with dyno testing of sportbikes (which also run about 15% loss) to agree emphatically. Well said.

With all due respect, Taz, a Hummer service manager or engineer is not going to run around saying the H2 is a pig...they are going to "stretch" the truth. IMO, believing everything they say is akin to believing what Hitlery Clinton says.

-Pete

[CONRAD II]

Originally Posted by TXSUT

MVR, I have enough experience with dyno testing of sportbikes (which also run about 15% loss) to agree emphatically. Well said.

With all due respect, Taz, a Hummer service manager or engineer is not going to run around saying the H2 is a pig...they are going to "stretch" the truth. IMO, believing everything they say is akin to believing what Hitlery Clinton says.

-Pete

I have to agree with TXSUT on the 20% - 25% driveline loss. Listen, the power I've experienced with the blower has been enormous compared to how my rig ran stock. I believe that if you want to see 500 rwh you need to start with something like a zo6 engine and work from there. I just think that the factory 6.0 is not designed to handle 500 or 600 horses anyway. At some point the 6.0 will grenade itself!

[RippSpeed]

Originally Posted by HUMMERcustoms.com/TAZ

Orange

I have had a Hummer service manager who is into racing etc. He said total loss to the ground should not be over 15% and closer to 10% total from the training he got at the factory. I do not know what happened with Conrad unless tuning is not quite right but, I figure with rough calculations Conrad has to be running 400HP at the ground. Consider I know if he is using the tuner from Magnuson there is another 40HP on the table, if a full catback another 20Hp maybe more, electric fans 20Hp, cooler T-stat maybe 5HP, cold air intake 15HP, and say just misc. stuff I'm forgetting say 25HP OH and Royal Purple engine oil 10HP then extra 30HP for changing to Purple synthetic in everything else His potential is rounding the numbers 540HP at the wheels.



TAZ

wow thats some bench racing numbers there ... No disrespect but aint no way are you going to get 30whp out of change into a synthetic oil ...

seriously I've built some import cars in my time and there is no way you could be getting numbers like that. Another automatics have a driveline loss of at least 15 to 20% on a 2wd vehicle...

[HUMMERcustoms.com/TAZ]

RippSpeed,

Go to Horse Power TV and you can see the show where they did a test on just changing from dino oil to Purple and they gained 9HP on a smaller engine if I remember correctly on the engine Just from the car on a dyno with before and after runs on each oil. It does not take to much of a stretch to figure you are gaining HP when you change transfer, tranny, then the rear end along with engine to Purple synthetic. You change all and as estimated in discussions I have had before using the probabilities of the numbers by % of each ones power drain to figure roughly what you can gain with making all the metal run more smoothly and a whole lot less friction so I guessed around 30HP. Just like it is estimated that going to electric dual fans in my case are converted GM fans off the 3/4 ton GM truck as I have done adds roughly 20HP, so do you see how it could be? I assume not because you had not gained a small piece of knowledge that I had gained by always watching a car show, reading everything I get my hands on or hanging out with guys that build just race cars all my life I have known them.

I'm 51 years old and built my first car daily driver and street racer in 1972 at 16. A 1968 Mustang coupe that came with a 3 speed and 302 that was switched with one of the last few 289 Hi Po blocks left for sale from the factory before Gapp and Rousch left Ford mated to a T-10 top loader 4 speed tranny custom built locally. Block showed up in the crate and all that nasty smelling goo they sealed it in and wrapped it up in a wax paper. It smelled sweet to me though. It took all the money I could save for 3 months to buy it holding money out of a check from working at a full service gas station making $3.00 an hour. I worked on the cars as much as the mechanic me being a gas/window washer. I gave that new engine and heads the works ported, polished, blue printed the whole real deal running a tunnel ram. I ran 4:56 rear gears racing to pay my way through college later running for pinks slips or taping $100 on the dash to see if you can reach up and get it when i dumped the clutch, never lost. It was mostly in Olathe, Kansas while going to school in Kansas City, MO.

I do not obviously know eveything by far but, I talk to forum members to help teach some young guys what i do know and somethings I learned from the school of hard knocks trying to steer them in right direction as best I can trying not to make a mistake and save them money. I try to offer experience and theory to save time for the guys who want to use my experience but, I'm not right all the time by any stretch of the imagination. I respect your opinion and those that will be so inclined should take it. I as do most when I joined the forum I think almost 4 years ago waited while trying to get to know the long time members watching and reading their posts before trying to make them look stupid or it appears that way and if wrong I'm sorry. If you look at the number of times I've posted over 4 years it is few matched to most on forum the same length of time as I try to be careful with answers I know something about yet do kid around also. I try not to touch audio or video leaving that to Dragon as he went to one of the best schools in the midwest in Oklahoma. There are some other areas as well such as paint leaving that stuff to Orange or Dragon who knows some along that line as well. I have mostly been drawn to performance. Hey what can I say I Love Speed and never get to go fast enough. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

I have a good hand on what most adds can and cannot do since Dragon and /or I go to SEMA most years and those guys try to be straight with info because SEMA will kick them out and they miss the best time of the year to pick up dealers for their product. It is looking very much like my H2 will be on the floor next October 08 for Wildwood brakes and for that we are working on a deal for a group buy of 10 brake setup kits just for the forum first and then for others after all here have gotten their great deal. In fact even though it is in early stages if you are interested in a brake setup you should let me know so I can get a list started as they hinted in a really good onetime deal. I have and like to promote this as the best forum so I also when I can try to give back to Forum Buds. I try not claiming things I have not had experience enough with. The guys and gals here will tell you I try to research well what I discuss on tech stuff I pass on. Dragon and I have stripped my H2 to the bone 3 times removing rear axle from under painting etc. also removing all under belly stuff to paint or chrome for shows. The rig will get a media blast cleaning after first of next year for it's 4th paint job counting factory job and the paint company foots the bill to be a sponsor. It will be a job that will take most likely till the end of summer to get it SEMA quality.

I know most around here do not line up with My H2 and run me and I'm smart enough to know the ones not to line up with. It is not often an H2 will run even if not some faster than a VW Golf special edition covered in carbon fiber and running 20lbs. of boost on turbo cat quick and on a few runs could not pull way from me yet I could slightly ease away at 10lbs. of boost. This is 8000lbs. versus roughly 2500lbs. and likely less. I'm not even close to getting the HP/TQ where it will be with a free engine waiting if I blow this approved by dealer/factory to see what stock 6.0L can take. I got sick and did not get to go and set a mile trap speed record this year for SUV class. Now with Wildwood brakes I will not get to next year with painting going on during 1 of 2 times a year they hold speed runs and the second is while SEMA is on so rig will be there. I will do what Wildwood wants if they do something for my Forum Buds as well as me and that is what we are negotiating. It all started with Dragons sales rep. visting about dealership cutting the middle man. Then from him they found out all we have done to H2 so talks began in earnest as they would like to tp Hummer market more deeply. It is an honor to hopefully be able to do this. We have a Firebird that is a national champ custom ride and one of several tuners Dragon built that may also make SEMA in 2008. I have 3 mags so hopefully we make one of them.

The people I get advice from I have close relationships with and i get some things early. One of the leading tuning companies in USA is just 15 minutes from me until they sold out to Comp Cams. They started building more products for the 6.0L and I will get some of that new stuff before many others do like coil pack covers. The head man still there is one of the best engine builders and tuners in the business. The other place i get advice if i'm short on knowledge does nothing but, build racing rides from the ground up and I stop by to visit and soak up all I can. They are going to help me build my next street/strip car a Mazda Miata with Ford 5.0L supercharged using a 9" Ford rearend, that is if I do not get a shot at getting the new Challenger because my state is so small dealers will get alocated. I'm lucky to have a friend that owns a dealer. Anyway this shop will also be making the 5 speed tranny conversion for me on H2 when I do it and the package I will be offering it done for.

Let me know by PM if you are really interested if I can get a real good group buy on Wildwood so I can tell them up front how many so if thee are more than 10 I will try and get them to let a few more. I just want to help the forum that has been so much help to me.

I wish you well RippSpeed and hope you can inlighten me and hopefully I you.

TAZ

[RippSpeed]

Originally Posted by CONRAD II

Tomorrow I'm going to "Engine Logistics" in Houston. They are one of the few places I've found that has an actual full time 4wd dyno. http://www.enginelogics.com/

They seem professional to me. Have any of you guys ever heard of them? I'll take some pics and post the results tomorrow.

Dammit!!! I didnt know you went to Chri Katthage's shop...

[CONRAD II]

Originally Posted by RippSpeed

Dammit!!! I didnt know you went to Chri Katthage's shop...

Chris was a pleasure to work with and I look forward to consulting him on any future engine/power upgrades

[RippSpeed]

Originally Posted by CONRAD II

Chris was a pleasure to work with and I look forward to consulting him on any future engine/power upgrades

Hell Yeah ... next time tell him Justin aka Wraith says hi!!!

He built a 5s-gte Toyota MR2/Camry Hybrid motor for me... I basically told him the specs and he put it together...




His a very very knowledgable guy when it comes to building motors... Great over builder too with alot of information and experience. Great guy to deal with...