Whats the deal with speed?

[juice57]

First off, this site is great, and as of today I am the proud new owner of an H3. The following is something I felt needed to be addressed. This is just my opinion but I feel most of you share it.

Why are so many people and car critics (the one's who are actually supposed to be knowledgealbe in this area) concerned with the speed of the H3. If they forgot, this is a TRUCK WITH OFF-ROAD capabilities. Nobody does 90 mph through trails (unless your in the BAJA). If I wanted something that could go 0-60 in less than 6 seconds I would get a sports car. But I wanted something that I could use everday and have fun on the weekends with it at some trails. Everyone should be happy that there is actually some good off-road trucks available. People are talking about the truck like it should be Ford Lighting fast. It's a off-road truck, I can't stress this enough. What is the deal with people.

If you guy's share my view point please let me know, because I feel like I am going Nuts!

[juice57]

First off, this site is great, and as of today I am the proud new owner of an H3. The following is something I felt needed to be addressed. This is just my opinion but I feel most of you share it.

Why are so many people and car critics (the one's who are actually supposed to be knowledgealbe in this area) concerned with the speed of the H3. If they forgot, this is a TRUCK WITH OFF-ROAD capabilities. Nobody does 90 mph through trails (unless your in the BAJA). If I wanted something that could go 0-60 in less than 6 seconds I would get a sports car. But I wanted something that I could use everday and have fun on the weekends with it at some trails. Everyone should be happy that there is actually some good off-road trucks available. People are talking about the truck like it should be Ford Lighting fast. It's a off-road truck, I can't stress this enough. What is the deal with people.

If you guy's share my view point please let me know, because I feel like I am going Nuts!

[walc]

Amen.

[Surferjo]

I agree with you but if I may play devils advocate for just a second.

I think by today’s standards the H3 is slow. I subscribe to Truck Trend magazine and in the back they list some basic info about SUV’s. The list has about 110 different SUV’s on it. Out of 110 there is only about 4 or 5 that have a slower 0-60 time.

Now is 0-60 time important to me? Not really if it was I wouldn’t have a Boulder Grey on order (with 5-7 weeks to go). I currently drive a Wrangler, the H3 is only marginally worse.

Nobody is arguing that the H3 is an extremely capable off road vehicle.

But one thing you can’t deny is by comparison to the rest of the SUV’s on the market it’s in the bottom percentile for overall acceleration and speed.


Speed has never been my concern as I have always driven a truck of some sort. But for some people the ability to comfortably merge on the freeway is an important factor.

[humv]

Your always going to get critics on any subject no matter what. All vehicles have good as well as bad points.... to small, to slow, uses to much gas, not good off road.. the list goes on and on. I have an H3 and don't mind it being a little slow. I test drove one and knew that from the get go.Thats why you test drive do research and make a decision! It is a pure and simple choice on what you feel comfortable with and what the wallet will tolerate.

[H3Witch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by juice57:
If you guy's share my view point please let me know, because I feel like I am going Nuts! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm with you...it's "Like Nothing Else"...so I don't care about comparisons.

[clydecpa]

I have to admit I don't share your optimism about the engine. Several factors played in to my choosing another vehicle over the H3 I had ordered (due to arrive next week.)

A big negative for me was the fact that the engine has weak power given its fuel economy. I still very much want a H3 or H?, whatever the next generation offering ends up being. There's no way GM significantly changes the engine for '07, as it would effectively trash the residual of the current H3. I am optimistic for 2008 that they redesign the engine and come up with something better suited to the H3 application. The I5 is a square peg forced into a round hole vis a vis the H3 IMO.

If you like the I5 I think that's swell. A lot of people have no problem with it. If it could get a legit 20 mpg in mixed driving, I would probably have settled for it, fewer questions asked of GM. People I know who have them are getting 15 mpg with mixed driving, heavy city drivers more like 14, and maybe 17.5 on a hwy trip, but not if you want to drive 80 mph. You gotta go slower, less than 70 mph to get 17+. That's just what I get from some other owners, YMMV.

When they have a Hummer that suits my driving style and requirements on AND off road, believe me I will be at the front of the line, foaming at the mouth. It more than meets them off road now, but has a lot to be desired on road, where let's face it, MOST of us do MOST of our driving.

[PARAGON]

Clyde, I'll have to disagree with you on a couple of points.

The engine's "power" and the truck's fuel economy do not go hand in hand as you suggest it should. Considering it is a truck designed for off-road use, with no priority given to aero for a reason and it's higher weight in it's class, it get's pretty damn good gas mileage.

Secondly, GM is a car business. Residual value is not high on their business plan for vehicles. The idea is to indroduce a vehicle and sell the crap out of it and then keep improving that vehicle and turn over new vehicle sales as much as possible. If the buyer would do it and the market was capable the process would be set up to make buyers want to buy a new version every year with revisions or improvements to create that desire.

As far as your ideas about the mileage, mileage estimates are not based on speeds of the speed limits on the interstate or higher.

It sounds more like YOU were trying to force a square peg in a round hole. The H3 obviously is not for you if your major concern is it's MPG estimates. That's fine, but you signed your post with "H2 wannabe" and you can expect to average around 12mpg with it and even though it has a 6.0L V-8, it still weighs 7K lbs and has the aero of a barn.

So, I guess I take some exception to your post because it's not making a whole lot of sense to me.

[DWPC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think by today’s standards the H3 is slow. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The H3 performance is comparable with Touareg V6, LR3 V6, Jeep Wrangler, Montero; all strong offroad performers; all but the Jeep costing considerably more. I've driven all in the past 30 days. Fractions of a second differences in published 0-60 times are meaningless.

As far as "today's standards"; the trend for performance and luxury in SUVs is recent and has all but killed off real 4X4 SUVs. I thinks its great that GM seems to returning to SUV roots with the H3.

[clydecpa]

I respect your opinion, but I disagree.

You can ask a consumer to sacrifice power in exchange for fuel economy, or vice versa. When you give hime a brand new product offering with no power and no fuel economy, that's a problem. Let's not sugarcoat it; the H2 gets 11-12 mpg in real world driving (my neighbor has one, so i know first hand). Given the reduction in size and weight of the H3, I don't consider 14-15 mpg to be "damn good." If you do, good for you.

I don't see why GM spent so much money developing the H3, but couldn't design a more power/fuel optimized engine. My next door neighbor is a GM employee (engine specialist to be exact for the Saturn plant) and cited this to me recently as another example of GM higher ups being asleep at the wheel.

My company was the exclusive Hummer dealer for the entire state of Tennessee region in the mid to late 90's, so I know a few things about Hummers and marketing them to customers. Right now, they've been made more affordable to the masses, but appeal probably more strongly to the hardcore offroad enthusiast. That's fine if that is what you are; you probably don't want it to have curb appeal to "soccor moms." Nevertheless, as fuel prices continue to climb GM will be forced to up the mileage ratings on the next significant change to the H3 or H?.

I simply stated that the deal killer for me was the combination of poor power with poor fuel economy. That combination is a fact! I tried to deny that for a couple of months, but when it came time to buy, I came to my senses. You can continue drinking the kool-aid you like so much, no problem. And nobody generally cares what the mileage estimates are based on. People care about what REAL WORLD mileage a car gets!

Don't misunderstand me, I like everything else about the H3, but the engine just had me shaking me head and walking away from purchasing.

Sorry I haven't updated my profile in 2 years, maybe it should say, "Hummer wannabe."

[Sharkster]

Most SUV manufacturers focus on the streetability (does that word exist? ) of the car, therefore sacrificing off-road abilities.

Look at the European SUVs such as the Porsche Cayenne, the Mercedes ML or the BMW X5. All afore mentioned cars have pretty good street driving abilities, but waaaaaay less good off-road abilities when compared to an H3.

GM saw that niche and jumped into it, reaching a big market with it.

Having said that I also do not agree with a lack of power for as long as city driving is concerned... On freeways (autobahn here) I would like to see a little more "kick". But I willingly accept the less power for A) better off road abilities on the other hand, plus acceptable fuel economy and (last but not least) the definitely ICONIC design of the H3.

Just my 2 cents.

[humv]

The H3 is what it is! Take it or leave it. I ask what is the compromize? Size of motor vs fuel economy can you have good gas milage with increased horsepower? This subject is like beating a dead horse. Having your cake and eating it too is hard to do.No matter how you slice it! I keep a journal of every tank of gas that I have put in mine and do about half city and half highway driving on mine. It has 2900 miles on it as we speak and I have gotten anywhere from 14 to 17 mpg.The best tank was when I let my son take it on a long trip all highway miles and it got 17mpg.I have to agree it isn't the perfect vehicle but I liked it and bought it.Time will tell if it holds up or falls apart, who knows. I have always had Toyota trucks and have had good and bad experiences with them as well. I just sold a 2004 Tacoma TRD 4x4 4 door v6 and the best tank of gas I ever got was 16 mpg.

[poul]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">you probably don't want it to have curb appeal to "soccor moms." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
exactly!
that's the main reason i didn't buy landrover/grand cherokee yet. i could live with this engine and install turbo in a year or two. my main problems are with damn unfolding seats (i need to haul big paintings around all the time) and wonky drive on gravel roads. both should be easy to fix for GM, unlike achieving impossible goal of good speed AND good mileage AND good offroading.

[Surferjo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

The H3 performance is comparable with Touareg V6, LR3 V6, Jeep Wrangler, Montero; Fractions of a second differences in published 0-60 times are meaningless.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry but I have to disagree. 2 of the 4 trucks you mentioned have a V8 option. The key word there is option.

I don’t think many people would have chosen the I5 over say a Hemi if it were available.

I can live with poor performance if I chose to go with the I5 over some other offering. 2 of the cars you mentioned have options for a V8 (except the Jeep, and the Montero). I think most would agree having a 2nd engine option would have been great.

Let me assure you again, I could give a rat’s ass about 0-60 times. Unfortunately there is really no other way to discus everyday driving statistics.

Also these comparisons are not fractions of a second.

The Jeep posts a 9.1 second 0-60, over 3 seconds better then the H3
The Montero posts a 10.3 second, still 2 seconds better than the H3

On a side note I have an 04 6cyl. Wrangler with a AEM intake kit and I don’t believe for one second this thing can do 0-60 in 9 seconds.

[f5fstop]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
Clyde, I'll have to disagree with you on a couple of points.

The engine's "power" and the truck's fuel economy do not go hand in hand as you suggest it should. Considering it is a truck designed for off-road use, with no priority given to aero for a reason and it's higher weight in it's class, it get's pretty damn good gas mileage.

Secondly, GM is a car business. Residual value is not high on their business plan for vehicles. The idea is to indroduce a vehicle and sell the crap out of it and then keep improving that vehicle and turn over new vehicle sales as much as possible. If the buyer would do it and the market was capable the process would be set up to make buyers want to buy a new version every year with revisions or improvements to create that desire.

As far as your ideas about the mileage, mileage estimates are not based on speeds of the speed limits on the interstate or higher.

It sounds more like YOU were trying to force a square peg in a round hole. The H3 obviously is not for you if your major concern is it's MPG estimates. That's fine, but you signed your post with "H2 wannabe" and you can expect to average around 12mpg with it and even though it has a 6.0L V-8, it still weighs 7K lbs and has the aero of a barn.

So, I guess I take some exception to your post because it's not making a whole lot of sense to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



As for GM offering something better in '07 from a power standpoint, all I can say is you never know.

As for the powertrain expert at the Saturn Plant, please email me with his name. I would be curious as to who this is. Many of those guys, and I knew most of them, having moved from Columbia TN in June, are like I was; power hungry. Besides, if he was such an engine expert, should he be able to supply the answer to the above statement?

For me, it is all that I asked for, and I realize I cannot beat a Hemi Jeep off the line, but I don't need too.

[Buddy in Az]

my 2 cents I got 19 mpg in lux model 34" tires, Airraid and SMA exhaust on a long trip. Not great but better than i expected. Oh yeah 75 MPH most of the time.

[clydecpa]

I'm not sure I understand what the question was, but make it plain to me and I will ask him and relay his answers to you. I won't divulge his name, because he didn't choose to pick sides on a public forum, I did. His arguments generally focus on what GM is doing wrong that is keeping them from keeping up with the foreign car makers. I agree with most but not all of his arguments.

I, like everyone else here, love the offroad capabilities of the H3. Yet, like 95% of the die hard offroaders here, I drive 95% OVER THE ROAD!!! Do I want to have my cake and eat it too? YES!!! That's part of the American way! GM probably has the engine technology on the shelf that would have worked better. But, they put it back on the shelf and pull off old (but proven) technology to power the H3. I realize the I5 is pretty new, but the H3 is brand spankin' new, and needed a brand spankin' new engine, not a Colorado hand-me-down.

Also, I test drove every vehicle mentioned earlier save the Montero, and I have no idea what their "tested" 0-60 times were, just like I don't care about EPA mileage ratings, only real world results. Every one of those other SUV's (and a half dozen or so others) felt noticably faster than the H3.

This is a fixable problem, and one I look forward to GM addressing. I hope it does happen sooner rather than later, but given GM's track record, I don't expect it to happen in the 2nd model year.

[DWPC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Surferjo:

On a side note I have an 04 6cyl. Wrangler with a AEM intake kit and I don’t believe for one second this thing can do 0-60 in 9 seconds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think your statement about the Jeep answers the question. 0-60 times by pro drivers on a track in optimum conditions just aren't a valid means of comparison. The larger engines "options" you mention are technically options, but their very high added cost throws the vehicles into a completely different range. You'll be hard pressed to find a V8 Touareg for much under $50K MSRP; almost 30% over the price of a base V6 Touareg. Some "option"!

I also think that with the way gas prices are heading, GM would be giving the H3; designed around the I5; the kiss of death to make the basic platform design compromises necessary to accomodate a big 8. We're going to see BIG changes in buying habits by the 07 MY.

Maybe next year they'l add a turbo option, but I doubt it because GM has never been very turbo-oriented and making a dependable turbo engine from one not designed as a turbo engine is difficult.

I don't think the H3's power is nearly as much of a problem for Hummer/GM as keeping the H2 viable as we careen toward $4/gallon and higher.

[HummBebe]

QUOTE]
I'm with you...it's "Like Nothing Else"...so I don't care about comparisons.[/quote]


Ditto


It's time to buck up little soldier

[KenP]

Originally Posted by DWPC

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Surferjo:

On a side note I have an 04 6cyl. Wrangler with a AEM intake kit and I don’t believe for one second this thing can do 0-60 in 9 seconds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think your statement about the Jeep answers the question. 0-60 times by pro drivers on a track in optimum conditions just aren't a valid means of comparison. The larger engines "options" you mention are technically options, but their very high added cost throws the vehicles into a completely different range. You'll be hard pressed to find a V8 Touareg for much under $50K MSRP; almost 30% over the price of a base V6 Touareg. Some "option"!

I also think that with the way gas prices are heading, GM would be giving the H3; designed around the I5; the kiss of death to make the basic platform design compromises necessary to accomodate a big 8. We're going to see BIG changes in buying habits by the 07 MY.

Maybe next year they'l add a turbo option, but I doubt it because GM has never been very turbo-oriented and making a dependable turbo engine from one not designed as a turbo engine is difficult.

I don't think the H3's power is nearly as much of a problem for Hummer/GM as keeping the H2 viable as we careen toward $4/gallon and higher.

Yep, it looks like $4/gallon will be here soon.

Hey, I like this sandbox.