<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bondage:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:

If you want to be stupid with your own life, fine. Otherwise, move on and quit giving advice here on crap you know nothing about on something as important as this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


RAAARRR!!!!1 I am a goddamn navy bellhop and I know all...

RAAARRRRR!!!!1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You're an idiot. Kinda funny, but an idiot.
Sssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
You're making a fool of yourself.

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am deaf and I will thank you NOT to make fun of the handicap. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This Toadies = AE for some dickhead

I didn't "knock" the 1911 per se. It's just not a good carry weapon for most applications. It is indeed heavy, is not very concealable, is more cumbersome on the draw, etc. It is about the application.

Advice is being discussed here and one has to take into account that you are talking an averaging of individuals and situations and what would fit most. A 1911 style just simply is not a friendly platform for a carry. I have an original Colt from WWII with the heavy, slopply trigger. But, I personally do not think the platform is the right one for the average person on a PD level.

Bondage, before you try to mouth off in any way, I would suggest you get your ducks in a row. Toadies made some comment about most engagements being made within 21 feet, hence my reference to feet. A handgun is for personal defense, period. You can't go around with an AR15 and a shotgun slung on your shoulders for personal protection. Optimum personal protection is to keep the target as far away as you are accurate and effective with your weapon. Since you can keep a target at much distance with a rifle it is the first choice of arms, second would be the shotgun, then the handgun, knife and lastly hand-to-hand. Since the first option most can have available to them at all times is the handgun, it is best to choose the one handgun that is the most applicable to the most possible situations. The fact that one can accurately engage a target further away and with more ammunition available without reload puts them at an advantage over the target in most situations.

At 5-10 feet the energy of the rounds of most large caliber handguns are sufficient to stop the target, so that is really a moot point as long as you have a handgun that is easily controlled in such an tense situation. You are no longer shooting at a paper target and taking out as many variables that would result in a miss or failed engagement has to be employed. This is why the Glock was developed. It is the easiest pistol to use and has a smooth profile.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DRTYFN:
This Toadies = AE for some dickhead </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Walc is in the building. Just a guess...

Here is my contribution to this thread... HK USP .45 COMPACT is what my hubby carries daily and he can't say enough about how great it is. Here's a link to the torture test, it can withstand an awful lot!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
I didn't "knock" the 1911 per se. It's just not a good carry weapon for most applications. It is indeed heavy, is not very concealable, is more cumbersome on the draw, etc. It is about the application.

Advice is being discussed here and one has to take into account that you are talking an averaging of individuals and situations and what would fit most. A 1911 style just simply is not a friendly platform for a carry. I have an original Colt from WWII with the heavy, slopply trigger. But, I personally do not think the platform is the right one for the average person on a PD level.

Bondage, before you try to mouth off in any way, I would suggest you get your ducks in a row. Toadies made some comment about most engagements being made within 21 feet, hence my reference to feet. A handgun is for personal defense, period. You can't go around with an AR15 and a shotgun slung on your shoulders for personal protection. Optimum personal protection is to keep the target as far away as you are accurate and effective with your weapon. Since you can keep a target at much distance with a rifle it is the first choice of arms, second would be the shotgun, then the handgun, knife and lastly hand-to-hand. Since the first option most can have available to them at all times is the handgun, it is best to choose the one handgun that is the most applicable to the most possible situations. The fact that one can accurately engage a target further away and with more ammunition available without reload puts them at an advantage over the target in most situations.

At 5-10 feet the energy of the rounds of most large caliber handguns are sufficient to stop the target, so that is really a moot point as long as you have a handgun that is easily controlled in such an tense situation. You are no longer shooting at a paper target and taking out as many variables that would result in a miss or failed engagement has to be employed. This is why the Glock was developed. It is the easiest pistol to use and has a smooth profile. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I'd pretty much agree. But I wasn't "trying to mouth off"...I WAS mouthing off. My ducks WERE in a row, but I popped 'em all.

It is a fact that in the VAST majority of "personal defense" situations, you have no choice on distance - it is almost exclusively "up close and personal." If I wanted to reach out and touch someone, I'd opt for an M14 or Rem 700BDL over the Mattel toy anyway. (See...I know how to piss off a Jarhead) I was just trying to point out that your experience (and mine) is combat oriented and not really applicable to civilian self-defense - precisely because we cannot go properly armed with a rifle or shotgun! You are most likely quite efficient with your Glock. But, even with these older eyes, you'd be happy for me to have your back in any realistic self-defense scenario with my 1911. Hell, together, we'd probably even hit something. As for capacity, there is no denying a statitical edge in sheer numbers. HOWEVER...for fun sometime, compare rounds expended to casualties in WWII vs. Vietnam. It is astounding. Hundreds to one vs. MILLIONS to one! No kidding! BTW - we won the former and lost the latter..... I would go so far as to say that choice of weapon is the LEAST important factor in effective self-defense. Attitude, experience, and training make the real difference, huh?

Oh, and BTW, Toadies is a buffoon. You are right about giving advice in a forum that includes the likes of him. You and I sitting down together would probably agree far more than not.

BTW, I like the Glock. Well, I respect it. It just doesn't fit me well and the balance is odd to me - but then the 1911 is such an extension of my hand and arm that ANYTHING else feels odd. Yeah, I've shot it that much.

Welcome back, Paragon.


Sean

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DRTYFN:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bondage:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:

If you want to be stupid with your own life, fine. Otherwise, move on and quit giving advice here on crap you know nothing about on something as important as this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


RAAARRR!!!!1 I am a goddamn navy bellhop and I know all...

RAAARRRRR!!!!1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You're an idiot. Kinda funny, but an idiot.
Sssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
You're making a fool of yourself.

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am deaf and I will thank you NOT to make fun of the handicap. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This Toadies = AE for some dickhead </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at the big brain on Brad.. does mommie let you use the big boy chair at home???

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
I personally do not think the platform is the right one for the average person on a PD level.

Toadies made some comment about most engagements being made within 21 feet, hence my reference to feet. A handgun is for personal defense, period.

This is why the Glock was developed. It is the easiest pistol to use and has a smooth profile. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most people can't shoot so sure give em a 9mm pussy gun.

Most tactical engagements are 21 feet or less and LE experience comes a lot closer to real life than your pretend Marine experience. Ayoob has credentials, you have an innerweb rep.

Tupperware guns are for idiot operators that do not want to learn how to use a handgun so DAO is the best for those idiots..

Toadies, what an idiot, you're all over the map on everything except your idiocy:
- Glocks only come in 9mm now, eh?
- Tupperware == DAO, huh?

I think many an experienced/non-idiot operator have explicitly chosen DA/SA and DAO guns specifically because they can take extra steps out of the equation during an up close situation when you're going to be impaired by an adrenaline spike. I primarily shoot a DA/SA for this reason...not because I'm too lazy to learn how to handle my weapon (btw it's tupperware too, just not a Glock, it's a Sig).

...careful there, toad... Most "Tactical" engagements involve the use of M4 rifles or MP5, in my experience... I wouldn't walk into anything w/ just a handgun intentionally. I carry glocks at work and Kimber Ultra CDP off duty.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
Look at the big brain on Brad.. does mommie let you use the big boy chair at home??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is definitely NOT the real Toadies.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
Most people can't shoot so sure give em a 9mm pussy gun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>We're on the same page, Bond.

Toadshiit, the US Armed Forces converted use from the .45 cal to the 9mm because of the range issue. As I understand things now, all Berettas are being worked out of service and replaced with SIG 229R DAK .40 cals because of the compromise of down-range energy and accuracy.

Storydud, you can't win an argument if the facts were written for you. Certainly you can't talk about guns or wheeling. Give it a rest, storyhut.

Hmm..the Glock Kaboom! FAQ. Wow.

With the octagonal rifled barrel (on at least the .45's), along with the feed ramp setups on a stock Glock barrel, you should always use SAAMI spec factory ammo with new brass.

With that being said, my Glock 30, my Glock 21, and my wife's Glock 23 all have had many rounds of ammo through it (my 21's had nearly 10k rounds, my 30 about 3000, and my wife's 23 about 2500), with zero issues.

From a liability issue, my recommendation is to always keep ammo in it that a local law enforcement agency uses. All of my .45's use 185gr +P Winchester (which is what the County and State uses in their .45's), and the wife's uses the same Speer Gold Dot that the local police department uses in their Glock 22's and 23's.

As for more ammo the better - there is a reason why Massad Ayoob loves the Beretta 92F with the 20 round extended magazine filled with 115gr +P+....you never know when you need that many rounds, and in an extensive firefight, reloading may not be an option. That's why my wife's Glock 23 (when it's in her side of the nightstand safe) has the Glock 22 magazine in it.

Back to the question at hand, which is M1911 related - Once you pick a pistol, shoot with it over and over and over again. Get snap caps and practice holster draws, trigger pulls, sighting, hand placements. Do clearance drills over, and over and over again. Get it to where it's going to fit in your hand the same way every time, all the time.

I will say one thing. I've carried an M1911 for years. Trained with it, taught others how to use it, and it's unique compared to other pistols. You must be willing to carry in Condition 1 at all times.

Also be aware that there is some minor additional training and mind sets needed to carry in Condtion 1.

A great case in point is Low Ready/High Ready drills (and I'm talking competition shooting, not self defense). Low Ready, thumb safety on, high ready, thumb safety off. Drill that into your head over, and over, and over, combine that with practice draws, over, and over, and over.....

You don't have to worry about that with a Glock....your trigger finger along the frame is your safety mechanism.

The other thing would be this....and it's about personal preferences. You might not like the Wilson CQB (although I can't see why not) or any of the other ones. Despite the fact that I love my Wilson, I end up carrying my Gunsite modded stainless Combat Commander much more often (and shoot with it more as well) than I do the Wilson. Why? I can't say. I just do.

And I paid (with mods) far less for the Combat Commander than I did the Wilson, even though both have similar mods and tweaks...some by me, some by professional gunsmiths.

So, be careful about spending a ton on a pistol that you actually might not like.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
Most people can't shoot so sure give em a 9mm pussy gun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>We're on the same page, Bond.

Toadshiit, the US Armed Forces converted use from the .45 cal to the 9mm because of the range issue. As I understand things now, all Berettas are being worked out of service and replaced with SIG 229R DAK .40 cals because of the compromise of down-range energy and accuracy.

Storydud, you can't win an argument if the facts were written for you. Certainly you can't talk about guns or wheeling. Give it a rest, storyhut. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong again wannabe warrior. We "converted" to 9mm more for NATO compliance which is not really an issue anymore since we ARE NATO.

And yes we are going back to .40 or in some cases .357sig to get back to the performance of the venerable .45ACP. Deny it, pretend it's not the truth, I don't care. I will carry it and blow your dumbass away with one round to your three.

Get your facts straight pretend Marine.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DRTYFN:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
Look at the big brain on Brad.. does mommie let you use the big boy chair at home??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is definitely NOT the real Toadies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am neapoleon

most marines being of the limp wristed variety need a weapon with a light kick.. not too stunning and a flat trajectory to stay on target

Okay, so how many trolls are running loose in here? I'm starting to lose count

I appreciate all the advise guys. I found a gun shop close by that is a Wilson dealer, I plan to go down there this week and demo a gun or two. So far (despite the STEEP price tag) I really like the Wilson Tactical Elite. All and all that would fit me and what I would like to go in to. I checked out that IDPA league Steve, I appeciate the tip, it looks like a blast and is exactly what I would really like to get in to. Thankfully there is also a gun club 5 minutes away that has IDPA too.

How many of you guys carry a gun in your truck? Here in WI the way the laws sit I can have a gun in the truck if its in a case and unloaded (a loaded clip can be right next to the gun though). With all my trips down to Milwaukee and the bad experiences down there I have come to the conclusion that it would be in my best intrests to have protection of some kind for my trips down there. I dont feel that pepper spray would be effective in most situations, the same goes for a stun gun. A tazer could help sometimes, but not always. Though I wonder with the way the laws sit here if my having some protection would even be worth it, and I do not and will not do anything that it not legally allowed. What do you guys think, is it worth having a gun in the truck if it has to be in a case and cannot be loaded while stored?

Actually Toadies is right all trolling aside. The 9mm Baretta has selected more for us to be in compliance with NATO for interchangability than the fact that it was a superior round.

Read and be informed.

http://www.sightm1911.com/M1911vsM9.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In 1985, the United States Armed Forces replaced the M1911 with the Beretta 92 F to the everlasting consternation of 1911 devotees everywhere. There were several reasons for the switch. The U.S. was the only NATO country not using a 9mm as the standard issue sidearm and there was a desire to issue a pistol chambered for the ubiquitous 9mm for logistical reasons. The Beretta will hold 15 rounds in its magazine as compared with 7 rounds of the military issue 1911 magazine and is lighter and easier to field strip than the 1911. The double action/single action Beretta was perceived as being a safer pistol to carry in a state of readiness than the "cocked and locked" 1911. In some quarters, the .45 ACP was viewed as too powerful and difficult to control for those having only nominal training with the weapon.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beastmaster:
Hmm..the Glock Kaboom! FAQ. Wow.

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed. Nothing like having your pistol blow up in time of need.

Most LE are forced by departments to carry those ****ty pieces because Mr.Glock sucks major LE cawk. They practically give them to departments compared to Kimbers, HKs, Sigs, etc.

I wouldn't use one for a doorstop.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ssgharkness020147:
I appreciate all the advise guys. I found a gun shop close by that is a Wilson dealer, I plan to go down there this week and demo a gun or two. So far (despite the STEEP price tag) I really like the Wilson Tactical Elite. All and all that would fit me and what I would like to go in to. I checked out that IDPA league Steve, I appeciate the tip, it looks like a blast and is exactly what I would really like to get in to. Thankfully there is also a gun club 5 minutes away that has IDPA too.

How many of you guys carry a gun in your truck? Here in WI the way the laws sit I can have a gun in the truck if its in a case and unloaded (a loaded clip can be right next to the gun though). With all my trips down to Milwaukee and the bad experiences down there I have come to the conclusion that it would be in my best intrests to have protection of some kind for my trips down there. I dont feel that pepper spray would be effective in most situations, the same goes for a stun gun. A tazer could help sometimes, but not always. Though I wonder with the way the laws sit here if my having some protection would even be worth it, and I do not and will not do anything that it not legally allowed. What do you guys think, is it worth having a gun in the truck if it has to be in a case and cannot be loaded while stored? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Enjoy your new weapon. I think you've made an outstanding choice, now practice, practice, practice! You were too kind to call our rambling nonesense "advice." But take what Beastmaster said to heart - he is, IMHO, dead on. Go back and re-read his last post. I agree 110%.

As for carrying the weapon in your car, I understand and sympathize with you're wanting to follow the law. You're a good law abiding citizen. And that is why I urge you to break the law if you feel it is necessary for your personal safety and well being. Living in the People's Republic of Kalifornia, I do it just about on a daily basis and have never had a problem. The weapon is well secreted, and I know how to say "Yessir and Nosir" if I am pulled over for a traffic violation.

Good luck! Enjoy it!

Sean

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
Indeed. Nothing like having your pistol blow up in time of need.

Most LE are forced by departments to carry those ****ty pieces because Mr.Glock sucks major LE cawk. They practically give them to departments compared to Kimbers, HKs, Sigs, etc.

I wouldn't use one for a doorstop. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, these are the primary reasons why Glocks have won out over the years versus any other major manufacturer:

1) Weight. My duty belt (with a Colt Double Eagle, of all things!) had the DE, Surefire, two handcuffs, 4 magazines, stun gun, and ASP. Taking a few ounces off helps the duty officer. (I also had a S&W 945 in a belly band holster off of my body armor). That's a lot of stuff to haul around.

2) Ammo count. The S&W 39 and 59's (made famous by the Illinois State Police when they went to it in 1968) started the trend of high capacity duty carry. Glock's G17 with 16+1 perpetuated that even further. Add the gangbanger FUD (Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt), and you've got something there.

One patrol officer I used to know had a G21 with 4 spare magazines. He used to give me crap (since I only had Wilson 8 rounders x4 spares with me) all the time. He fell into the FUD....hook, line and sinker.

If I really need that much firepower, out came my FN/FAL. Screw the .45, screw the AR-15 or the Ruger Mini-14 or the Remington 870 with slugs- give me .308 with the FAL.

3) Perceived Durability. When I was going through Instructor training, there was a rather hilarious video about how this one southern state Sheriff's office did their Glock "testing". I now wish I kept or made a copy of it. It shows the G17 getting tortured by:
- Multiple Helicopter Drops
- Mud dunk
- Run over by a patrol car
- Thrown onto a brick wall
- and some other stuff I don't remember.

What was hilarious about the video was that the lead tester (who might have been the elected Sheriff too), took the G17 after each torture test, loaded it, shot off all the rounds in the magazine in a really haphazard fashion, then tossed it onto the nearest flat surface (most of the time which was the concrete floor.). He eventually knocked off the front sight.

Well, that video helped sell Glocks. Many departments, stung by the failures of many various shotguns other than the Remington 870, saw this video as the ultimate torture test.

What also helped was that the same G17 that was beaten up by that backwater department made its rounds to other departments....and beaten up even more.

And with realism - how many officers really keep their duty pistols clean? I still clean mine every month if they are unused, and after each use when I take them on the range. But I've been drilled so many times on the aphorism "a clean gun is a happy gun" that all of my firearms are happy. Police departments look at reliability - will the pistol fire when you pull the trigger and if it's abused like most officers abuse their pistols?

4) Armorer's school....or the simplicity of it. Take one punch bought at Sears, and you can fix most stuff (short of sights) with a Glock. Win over the hearts of the poor souls that have to fix the pistols that get abused by the officers that don't take care of them, and you get good reports back up the chain of command.

5) Finally, it comes down to training. When Glock came out of the shadow, many departments still used revolvers. Glock was the first manufacturer who could prove to training departments that the overall basics of firearms training remained the same, and that you needed to just teach the issues/differences of loading/unloading and clearing jams. No external safeties, no other niggling issues, just teach the same basics (which are the same basics no matter which pistol you use, really), and add the esoterics of magazine handling.

This is where Glock won out. This is where Glock continues to win - convincing the departments of the last two items are cost savings. This is how Glock has won 60% of the Police Departments and the FBI. I'm not saying it's right, but with a decent product and excellent marketing - they really did a number on the competition.

Steve, I agree entirely... I shoot IPSC with a G35 so I don't switch between guns too often (other than a ccw)... ( I personally carry a G22 at work). I've dumped thousands and thousands of rounds through that gun and it did fail once, we think it was d/t a jacked up reloaded round... and the weapon did just what it was supposed to... it dumped the mag (yes it spanked my hand) and expelled the gasses downward. I replaced the extractor that got knocked off, got a new mag and was ready for the next stage... same gun.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bondage:

Enjoy your new weapon. I think you've made an outstanding choice, now practice, practice, practice! You were too kind to call our rambling nonesense "advice." But take what Beastmaster said to heart - he is, IMHO, dead on. Go back and re-read his last post. I agree 110%.

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drills are the key. It's called muscle memory, and if you do the drills over and over and over - your gross motor skills will react properly and by the numbers under stress every single time. This is the basis for most successful training programs that combining firearms and stress mangement.

I've got a funny story about muscle memory, rather recent, in fact.

My stress relief is practicing a rather esoteric martial art called Krav Maga. We had an out of state instructor come by to demonstrate disarming techiques.

Utilizing ASP Red Training guns, we practiced the movements. Then came the drills using real "training" weapons - firearms with plugged barrels, no magazines, and no firing pins. The pistol in this case was a Beretta 92.

The out of state instructor (who instructs with LAPD SWAT) was the guy I was paired with. Figures. And he was the armed person.

Now - when you're doing pistol takeaways, rule #1 is: The gun will go off! Most takeaways will have you grasp the pistol in the area of the ejector port to cause a jam when the pistol discharges. Well, in my former life's training, when you take away the pistol, you rack the slide twice (done to clear and put the pistol back into battery), come up to target, and assess. (Of course, I won't talk about situations where you back into a semi-auto pistol!)

Well, that's what I did. Everyone started asking me why I did that. Then came the real life versus dojo training discussion.

So - muscle memory done years ago for 3 1/2 years straight still applies and is remembered over 10 years later. It did cause the group to discuss stuff that the instructors really didn't want to cover, but the point is that doing drills over and over again until they are second nature will put you in good stead.

I do have a bad story about the same clearing drill. I was a particpant in an introductory IPSC shoot. The fake sceneario was an interesting one where you grabbed any loaded pistol on the table and started shooting the selected targets. On the table were three revolvers and one Sig P228 semi-auto.

The Sig got a stovepipe jam on the second target. Muscle memory said for me to cycle twice and continue. That's what I did. Floor rules for that day's shoot was to halt after all jams. I got DQ'ed. So there are times where real life drills sometimes conflict with competition rules.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Harley:
Steve, I agree entirely... I shoot IPSC with a G35 so I don't switch between guns too often (other than a ccw)... ( I personally carry a G22 at work). I've dumped thousands and thousands of rounds through that gun and it did fail once, we think it was d/t a jacked up reloaded round... and the weapon did just what it was supposed to... it dumped the mag (yes it spanked my hand) and expelled the gasses downward. I replaced the extractor that got knocked off, got a new mag and was ready for the next stage... same gun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that's why I've slowed my 1911 carry down a bit...actually quite a bit! Using the same pistol over and over builds that muscle memory and refreshes it. I have to enhance my G30 and G21's handling. Here's why.

My wife carries the G23 for CCW. To standardize (in case of anything adverse that happens), I've been carrying the G30 or G21 a lot more. I really should get another G23 and carry that instead.

Which brings back the side discussion about standardization. Standardization in NATO meant using the same ammo. Police departments should do the same thing - standardize along the same firearm family so that you can interchange parts and ammo. In the off chance of an extended firefight, officers can exchange magazines with little to no issues, or at least use the same ammo by migration to magazines of the type that their weapon can use. That's why Phoenix PD uses (for their patrol officers) G22's and G23's.

But again, training repetitively is the key. I know that when I carry the G30 or G21, my wife doesn't have to change her way of thinking to adapt to use it if she has to. It operates identically to her G23. She can grab ANY one of the Glocks and use it, and she knows how the trigger works, the angle of the grip to her hand, sight alignment, etc.

Again, gross motor skills and the training to make you use it in adverse situations will help you survive. And I need to reinforce it myself by carrying the G30 or G21 more often than I do.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beastmaster:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
Indeed. Nothing like having your pistol blow up in time of need.

Most LE are forced by departments to carry those ****ty pieces because Mr.Glock sucks major LE cawk. They practically give them to departments compared to Kimbers, HKs, Sigs, etc.

I wouldn't use one for a doorstop. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, these are the primary reasons why Glocks have won out over the years versus any other major manufacturer:

1) Weight. My duty belt (with a Colt Double Eagle, of all things!) had the DE, Surefire, two handcuffs, 4 magazines, stun gun, and ASP. Taking a few ounces off helps the duty officer. (I also had a S&W 945 in a belly band holster off of my body armor). That's a lot of stuff to haul around.

2) Ammo count. The S&W 39 and 59's (made famous by the Illinois State Police when they went to it in 1968) started the trend of high capacity duty carry. Glock's G17 with 16+1 perpetuated that even further. Add the gangbanger FUD (Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt), and you've got something there.

One patrol officer I used to know had a G21 with 4 spare magazines. He used to give me crap (since I only had Wilson 8 rounders x4 spares with me) all the time. He fell into the FUD....hook, line and sinker.

If I really need that much firepower, out came my FN/FAL. Screw the .45, screw the AR-15 or the Ruger Mini-14 or the Remington 870 with slugs- give me .308 with the FAL.

3) Perceived Durability. When I was going through Instructor training, there was a rather hilarious video about how this one southern state Sheriff's office did their Glock "testing". I now wish I kept or made a copy of it. It shows the G17 getting tortured by:
- Multiple Helicopter Drops
- Mud dunk
- Run over by a patrol car
- Thrown onto a brick wall
- and some other stuff I don't remember.

What was hilarious about the video was that the lead tester (who might have been the elected Sheriff too), took the G17 after each torture test, loaded it, shot off all the rounds in the magazine in a really haphazard fashion, then tossed it onto the nearest flat surface (most of the time which was the concrete floor.). He eventually knocked off the front sight.

Well, that video helped sell Glocks. Many departments, stung by the failures of many various shotguns other than the Remington 870, saw this video as the ultimate torture test.

What also helped was that the same G17 that was beaten up by that backwater department made its rounds to other departments....and beaten up even more.

And with realism - how many officers really keep their duty pistols clean? I still clean mine every month if they are unused, and after each use when I take them on the range. But I've been drilled so many times on the aphorism "a clean gun is a happy gun" that all of my firearms are happy. Police departments look at reliability - will the pistol fire when you pull the trigger and if it's abused like most officers abuse their pistols?

4) Armorer's school....or the simplicity of it. Take one punch bought at Sears, and you can fix most stuff (short of sights) with a Glock. Win over the hearts of the poor souls that have to fix the pistols that get abused by the officers that don't take care of them, and you get good reports back up the chain of command.

5) Finally, it comes down to training. When Glock came out of the shadow, many departments still used revolvers. Glock was the first manufacturer who could prove to training departments that the overall basics of firearms training remained the same, and that you needed to just teach the issues/differences of loading/unloading and clearing jams. No external safeties, no other niggling issues, just teach the same basics (which are the same basics no matter which pistol you use, really), and add the esoterics of magazine handling.

This is where Glock won out. This is where Glock continues to win - convincing the departments of the last two items are cost savings. This is how Glock has won 60% of the Police Departments and the FBI. I'm not saying it's right, but with a decent product and excellent marketing - they really did a number on the competition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lies and Frapications.

Most LEs are not gun enthusiasts and therefore could care less about their carry. Hence giving them a lighter weapon with plenty of "pray and spray" potential. Any ability to use the weapon adequately are backseat to the primary objective that is making sure Barney Fife doesn't blow his foot off just like the monkey DEA agent on that video. But you see the biggest safety hazard for a weapon is a LE type who sucks at self preservation and WILL NOT invest time and effort let alone the fact that a majority of departments are tighter than a 10yr old chinese twat. They will not spend the funds to give their officers the best weapons and training let alone give their officers a fine quality weapon like a Sig, Kimber, Wilson, etc. It is simply easier to pay out the life insurance policy when Joe Law fails at his chosen occupation in life.

LE officers PWND by taxpayers and Gastons tupperware guns.

Okay, Beastmaster, I know the vid you are talking about and I've seen it. It is an outstanding testament to the durability of that design and build. HOWEVER........

We don't usually drop our pistols out of choppers. We DO (or at least a friend of mine DID) tuck his Glock between the mattress and box springs of his bed. He came home one day and found that his dog had literally EATEN THE DAMN FRAME!!! It was about the funniest f()ckin' thing I'd ever seen. The dog had popped the mag and chewed it up pretty well, but the frame was basically GONE! You'll not see a photo of this or a video though. He took it in to the gunshop, they contacted Glock, and Glock had the weapon shipped immediately back to them and they replaced the frame - for FREE! That was one pic I don't think they wanted floating around.

The moral of the story is this - get a goddam Nylabone for your dog and keep your Glock high and dry when you're not around!


Sean

ps - Again, I agree 110% - muscle memory, developed through repetition, IS the key. I am right handed and left eye dominant, so I "cross shoot." My shooting stance is therefor a little unique, but when my bicep hits my cheekbone, the sights are ON! It makes shooting a sidearm more like shooting a rifle! A little weird, yeah, but a LOT effective.

BTW, I found actual video of Toadie displaying his firearm prowess...


Sean

Did we lose PARAGAY??? Guess all those facts scared him off.

No. He's not the type to be scared off. He gathers information and waits patiently.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beastmaster:
No. He's not the type to be scared off. He gathers information and waits patiently. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He gathers no information.. leastwise not "correct" information.

I know I was shock to find out we adopted the M9 pistol because of it's long range capablities and not so we could interchange ammo stocks with NATO allies... Or due to the fact that Beretta was "fed" the bid amount so they could win. And it was low bid not best bid... And most tactical engagements take place well beyond the established 21 feet.

Wow it was like history had changed itself...

Just shocking.

Actually, I have a hard time typing in response to continued stupid nonsense from storythehut while driving 12 hours and got back home late last night. Go back and learn some history that's actual, from the people involved. Not the BS you like to pretend is facts.

Ronald Reagan was rebuilding our Armed Forces. Standardization was the politically correct excuse. Back in Vietnam, the subject of the range of the Colt was discussed and debated. It was a great tunnel gun but range limited it's ability in many engagements. This was after we assumed use of the M16.

If the US was simply concerned about NATO interoperability, the Colt would have been replaced long before it was. Our guys were taking German Lugers in WWII and using them for their range. The .45's use had debated been ever since and there were many on both sides of the argument.

So, where did I say anything about the choice of Beretta over other makers? Also, where did I say "most tactical engagements take place well beyond the established 21 feet?" You are a dumpster diving tool. And Petey, exactly what "facts" are supposed to have "scared me off."

I don't need to gather information on this one. Toadies, aka Storyfck, already has a Sterling reputation for being a complete dumbass here and on other sites.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beastmaster:
No. He's not the type to be scared off. He gathers information and waits patiently. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He gathers no information.. leastwise not "correct" information. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You obviously did not get the inference there. Never heard of a USMC S/S before?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beastmaster:
No. He's not the type to be scared off. He gathers information and waits patiently. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He gathers no information.. leastwise not "correct" information. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You obviously did not get the inference there. Never heard of a USMC S/S before? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay secret agent man..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
Actually, I have a hard time typing in response to continued stupid nonsense from storythehut while driving 12 hours and got back home late last night. Go back and learn some history that's actual, from the people involved. Not the BS you like to pretend is facts.

Ronald Reagan was rebuilding our Armed Forces. Standardization was the politically correct excuse. Back in Vietnam, the subject of the range of the Colt was discussed and debated. It was a great tunnel gun but range limited it's ability in many engagements. This was after we assumed use of the M16.

If the US was simply concerned about NATO interoperability, the Colt would have been replaced long before it was. Our guys were taking German Lugers in WWII and using them for their range. The .45's use had debated been ever since and there were many on both sides of the argument.

So, where did I say anything about the choice of Beretta over other makers? Also, where did I say "most tactical engagements take place well beyond the established 21 feet?" You are a dumpster diving tool. And Petey, exactly what "facts" are supposed to have "scared me off."

I don't need to gather information on this one. Toadies, aka Storyfck, already has a Sterling reputation for being a complete dumbass here and on other sites. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong again **** for brains Jarine...

here once again.. read and learn then get back to me..



http://www.sightm1911.com/index.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In 1985, the United States Armed Forces replaced the M1911 with the Beretta 92 F to the everlasting consternation of 1911 devotees everywhere. There were several reasons for the switch. The U.S. was the only NATO country not using a 9mm as the standard issue sidearm and there was a desire to issue a pistol chambered for the ubiquitous 9mm for logistical reasons. The Beretta will hold 15 rounds in its magazine as compared with 7 rounds of the military issue 1911 magazine and is lighter and easier to field strip than the 1911. The double action/single action Beretta was perceived as being a safer pistol to carry in a state of readiness than the "cocked and locked" 1911. In some quarters, the .45 ACP was viewed as too powerful and difficult to control for those having only nominal training with the weapon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one disputes this except you know it all double ought spy man....

Well, I don't think I have the intelligence to break down into terms you can understand why things are not so black and white.

If you want facts about what caliber and what handguns are good for everyday use, consult the FBI. Better yet go peruse their terminal ballistic studies and figure it out for yourself.

Storytoads, you have openly shown your ignorance in yet another subject. I offered up several holes for you to actively argue and you showed your blatent lack of knowledge on this issue and that anything posted by you is very subject.

Do you really think it would be a published fact that We wanted a different round because the .45 lacks the penetration of other rounds? Range is not just about accuracy, it is the terminal ability of the round, and a pistol projectile that does not penetrate will get the shooter killed. This is why I personally do not chamber HydraShoks. If I knew the contact was going to be at 10 feet, a .45 with HydraShoks would be great, but I can't predict the encounter and choose to have the best option for all engagements.

Everybody has their opinions, some are based on experience or knowledge. StoryToad, you have shown that you have neither.

Paragon, I forgot to tell you I like you carry weapon.

Paragon - I don't think I ever caught your caliber and load (and I'm too lazy to go back and read over Toadstools BS to find it). Do you carry a .40 Short and Wimpy? Sorry - couldn't resist. I actually really like the round. What rounds do you stoke it with for everyday use? Are you familiar with the +P Golden Sabre rounds? I don't know about .40, but they are about tops in the .45. I have half a box of the original Black Talon's laying around here somewhere in .40 - if we ever meet up on the trail, I'll give 'em to you as a reminder of how pathetically PC the USA has become.


Sean

ps - hey Toadstool....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLATHER BLATHER BLATHER </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the basis of your arguements throughout this thread is the military adopted the M9 due to a perceived lacking in range and accuracy on with the 1911. you are wrong and very stupid to keep blathering your bull**** opining about what does not constitute a valid tactical situation. again, you = wannabe CQB man..

You are the only one who is dazzled with your pretend military experience and tactical expertise. Most LEs and operators would laugh at your dumbass as most likely half this board is not counting your sackriders.

Noticed I purposely did not advocate or push MY choice. I am fairly standardized with the .40SW, though. Although I do own anything from a MarkII to a DE .44mag.

The Remington Golden Sabres are pretty much top dog as far as the average round goes from what I remember. Their wound creation is well beyond most other rounds.

I have Winchester Ranger Partition Golds that I got several boxes of from a buddy and are my CC loads. The Hydra-Shoks rate well in tests but when they loose some kinetic energy their penetration drops off faster or so I was told.

There might be newer and better rounds available today but when when it hits the fan there are many more variables that I am concerned about than a few gelatin tests.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLATHER BLATHER BLATHER </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the basis of your arguements throughout this thread is the military adopted the M9 due to a perceived lacking in range and accuracy on with the 1911. you are wrong and very stupid to keep blathering your bull**** opining about what does not constitute a valid tactical situation. again, you = wannabe CQB man..

You are the only one who is dazzled with your pretend military experience and tactical expertise. Most LEs and operators would laugh at your dumbass as most likely half this board is not counting your sackriders.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok