For the tree huggin ethanol people

[hummer74]

If anyone gives you crap for driving an h2 and says "well MY vehicle runs on ethanol!" "MY car doesn't pollute!" Oh yeah? Well the H2 won't cause a food shortage.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...3659/index.htm

[Aubs]

This just shows the sad reality that there is no quick, easy, or green energy solution as of yet. Hydrogen will hopefully fill that spot, but that is at least 10 years from mass market, 4 from the first vehicles available for civillian purchase.

Of course, you can make Ethanol out of products other than corn. Sugar cane works for Brazil, which imports something like only 15% of it's oil needs. I imagine bamboo might work too.

[f5fstop]

Sad part is that the manufacturing plants that create ethanol fuel from Corn, use more power to make a gallon of ethanol, than is saved by a vehicle running on ethanol.
cane sugar costs about 50% less to make into ethanol the corn. (Foxnews Channel ). However, the farm lobby is very strong....

[Agriv8r]

i have read it takes about twice the energy to produce veggie gas

[Vettster]

Originally Posted by PhilD

From what I understand corn is actually not a very good product to make ethanol from, sugar cane is far better.

Humm. Castros about ready to kick off.
Maybe we can make a deal with Cuba.

Sugarcane and cigars.

Drive Safe,
Vettster

[31_bandits]

Originally Posted by PhilD

It's just another leaf lickers slanted view of the World. Ultimately he blames "Detroit" and will no doubt not be happy until we all live in wind powered houses, cycle to work, and donate all our disposable income to help the unfortunate in 3rd World countries.

Well, probably not. They'd still find something to be mad about. The extreme element of enviro-concern is intrinsically simply unhappy. They will rail against something, whatever that is, probably always. What was once the worst thing evil men ever did to the world? Nuclear power. Now the same extreme fringe considers it the answer.

As with hummer haters in general, the extreme element of enviro-concern is emotionally driven and not rational. And the element of liberalism in America over the last 15-20 years (since i've been old enough to know politics existed) that is anti-american is born of personal discontent and cannot be quelled by changing america, as it has nothing to do with america, and everything to do with the people who have the feeling.

[31_bandits]

Originally Posted by Aubs

This just shows the sad reality that there is no quick, easy, or green energy solution as of yet. Hydrogen will hopefully fill that spot, but that is at least 10 years from mass market, 4 from the first vehicles available for civillian purchase.

well said.

hybrids are no answer to any type of oil shortage or global warming problem, etc. if a Toyota Prius gets 3.5 times better mileage than a Hummer H2 (i read that in a comparison somewhere or other a week or two ago), then it will keep our oil around 3.5 times longer, or delay the end of the world by 3.5 times.

its just a delay, not a solution. A solution for an oil shortage would have to use zero oil. for global warming panic, you'd have to generate no net CO2.

I doubt we'll run out of oil, there's shale and sands and come what may. And its interesting to write to various prof's and the like about global warming. water vapor (the product of burning hydrogen) is a far more potent greenhouse gas than CO2, but, water vapor in the air appears to contribute to less solar radiation hitting the earths surface, sort of balancing its contribution to heating.

CO2 is made, air heats, water evaporates. water traps mroe heat, forms more clouds, which shield the surface from some heat

Thus goes one theory that is very nicely put together and completely not gov't funded. Remember when an enviro-concern freaks out about how anybody who isn't chicken little about global warming is "an oil company tool" that global warming is the #1 gov't funded area of research and generates billions in revenues for the shcools and institutes that attempt to prove it is occuring and dangerous. There is no funding for attempts to prove its not, or so some folks in the field would say.

[Aubs]

Originally Posted by 31_bandits

Well, probably not. They'd still find something to be mad about. The extreme element of enviro-concern is intrinsically simply unhappy. They will rail against something, whatever that is, probably always. What was once the worst thing evil men ever did to the world? Nuclear power. Now the same extreme fringe considers it the answer.

As with hummer haters in general, the extreme element of enviro-concern is emotionally driven and not rational. And the element of liberalism in America over the last 15-20 years (since i've been old enough to know politics existed) is born of personal discontent and cannot be quelled by changing america, as it has nothing to do with america, and everything to do with thep eople who have the feeling.

I would agree with you on that 100%. From my time spent at UMass Amherst I got the same feeling. And when you actually have a moderated discussion, and break their unfactual position apart, they start crying... so the emotional attachment is very much a part of it. I debated a few people, and most got quite irrational, red faced, and one just started sobbing. It was fascinating. The profs are a little better, though they all drive hybrids and refuse to believe in the validity of the CNW study. They're in their own little liberal bizzaro world that is a total disconnect from reality -- exactly why I'd love to be a professor!

[md_sailor]

Originally Posted by PhilD

From what I understand corn is actually not a very good product to make ethanol from, sugar cane is far better.

Dude! Don'T F**K with my Rum Supply or its On!

[31_bandits]

Originally Posted by Aubs

I would agree with you on that 100%. From my time spent at UMass Amherst I got the same feeling. And when you actually have a moderated discussion, and break their unfactual position apart, they start crying... so the emotional attachment is very much a part of it. I debated a few people, and most got quite irrational, red faced, and one just started sobbing. It was fascinating. The profs are a little better, though they all drive hybrids and refuse to believe in the validity of the CNW study. They're in their own little liberal bizzaro world that is a total disconnect from reality -- exactly why I'd love to be a professor!

Or stand up and openly yell at you. But, in general, the more extreme somebodies views are, the less they are able to defend them and the farther they deviate from verifiable reality.

The other day one of the most liberal people that finds his/her way to my social circle stood up from a chair and screamed at me, then later said they'd lost hours of sleep stewing about my craziness. My commentary was this:

-the democratic party should take some responsibility for having bush in office, because they failed to produce a remotely passable candidate to oppose him. instead they found gore and kerry, two of the perhaps freakiest buggers they could have found.

Obviously that guy is an "enviromentalist". Drives an "hour car" if you guys know what those are and everything. He vehemently opposed nuclear power years ago and yelled at me for my support of it then... he supports it now.

Extreme views are what give rise to hummer hate, and to alot of what gets publicized in america today, and they are basically just never thought through. They are closer to temper tantrums than to something born of sitting down and crunching numers.

There is, of course, an equally extreme view on the opposite side, and extreme conservative views aren't necessarily any better. The KKK isn't any better than the wild liberal left, just nutty in a different way. (and, it seems to me, the two extremes are about equally bigoted and biased and stereotyping and so forth, they just "hate" different groups of people).

I don't mean to soap-box, and i do apologize if my blabber bores anybody, but while i accept that H2s get crappy mileage and i'd be willing to fund a petition to GM to really try to improve that, the singling out of the H2 is essentially without merit (either by enviro's or offroad enthusiasts, as the truck is used by 36% of drivers offroad and as DRTY said the other day "isn't it funny how our trucks seem to handle all these "hardcore" trails that we throw them at", and its mileage isn't stunningly bad, just about as crappy as some far-more-common also crappy mileage vehicles that should all be improved). My pocketbook doesn't mind the gasp rices at all, but for the sake of public relations, GM should really try to bump the H2 up a notch or 3 in the mileage department.

[31_bandits]

Originally Posted by md_sailor

Dude! Don'T F**K with my Rum Supply or its On!

lol

[f5fstop]

Originally Posted by 31_bandits

GM should really try to bump the H2 up a notch or 3 in the mileage department.

And it will happen... Be patient

[DRTYFN]

Screw all of this hybrid/alternately fueled vehicle crapola!!! I want my George Jetson flying car!!!!

[deserth3]

I have a few problems with this article.

1. Starts out talking about corn and ends up talking grain. Makes no sense,

2. Grain is being grown in surplus. And what is surplus is NOT getting to many of the starving people anyway.

3. The corn used for making E85 is not fit for human consumption. It is mainly grown for feed for cattle and in excess. Which makes them fatter than cattle who are range fed. You know fat. The stuff you cut off the steak and don't eat anyway.

4. www.e85fuel.com

Another liberal twisting the truth.

[31_bandits]

the element of liberals (and this certainly isn't all liberals) that is anti-US / anti-American has a built-in loathing for E85 because GM and Ford have endorsed it. Make no mistake, if GM had released the Prius nobody would have wanted it.

If i was GM, i would focus on some permanent/real solution to the problem - like hydrogen cars - and leave the hybrid thing to 'yota and the gang.

And i'd throw every nugget of technology at the next H2 and Escalade and Tahoe... displacement on demand, aerodynamics, tranny & shift patterns, low-loss t-cases and diffs (if that's even possible)...

why? because people absolutely love them, and they are massively profitable, and it would ... it would be a huge strike back into the heart of the anti-GM sentiment from the extremist left.


Do you know something, Fstop?

[31_bandits]

ethanol as fuel only makes sense when working from cellulose instead of starch (or cellulose + starch), because the feedstock for the ethanol production is far cheaper and has less alternate value.

I didn't check out the link that deserth provided, but i have a friend who talks about E85 quite a bit, and has sort of collected the analysis of it including re-sale cost of process byproducts and so forth. He sent me a link to a website of "pro-global-warming" scientists that gave a pretty good essay on ethanol and how it could be made to work within 30-50 years. i'll post if i can find it.