Buying new pistol, need advice

[evldave]

Originally Posted by PARAGON

Sorry, there is absolutely no validity to it.

I'm sorry, sitting idle while someone makes dumb remarks is not going to happen.

I implore you to seek a professional's opinion, not a gun clerk, a real professional. On top of that, there is tons of information on the web about home protection and I'll doubt you'll find one valid one that suggests one utilize the .22 as a home defense caliber.

What do you consider a professional? A cop? How about a SWAT team member (and ex Marine Sniper)? One of my poker buddies is a detective on the local police force (and son of the captain), another guy I've shot pistols with is a SWAT team member. Both say a .22 with lots of bullets can be better in a panic situation than a larger pistol with limited shots and a lower possibility of 2nd shot landing because of the kick.

So who's experts are better? Are police considered professionals? I'm not overly concerned one way or the other (I have a shotgun, which I think we can all agree is the best home defense weapon). I'm more interested in stopping power out in the woods, where I know a rifle would be best, but I'm not backpacking w/a rifle unless I'm specifically out to shoot stuff.

[Racer-X]

Well, it's true I was relying directly on what I was told - but both were a little more than a store "clerk".

The "logic" made sense to me. I was basically told this. First they both recommended shotguns as the best home defense. When I insisted on a pistol they both asked about my living situation, Did I have children, where they sleeping on the same floor etc. They asked how much I would practice shooting.

A 22 with hollow points holding lots of rounds was as close to a shotgun in pistol version. Use the spray and prey method. Factor in the panic thing.

On the off chance a a round made it to one of the children it could only be a fragment of a small bullet and unlikely to do fatal damage.

I never suggested a 22 has much stopping power with a single round.

BTW - I bought the .357 that day.

[Big Z]

When I replied the first time, I should have just said, biggest cal you can find, (and mags to go with----for bear.) I've harvested Bear with Rifle and bow and arrow, never with pistol. I carry a 44 redhawk in bear country. I also handload, and make some serious thumpers! But more important than all that--and the type of pistol you have--It's when that BEAR is within a few yards and less! MAD!, Injured, guarding a cub, or spooked, Or! ---let's just say, most will just piss themselfs!--so the less you have to figure out, (safety lever, chambering) the better the chance of firing a round if needed. Most of time, bears will run, And crackin a couple into the ground if needed, usually gets the same reaction.

Having said that, and wanting an autoloader, the Sig Pro in 40 cal--Bigger if made--not searched---might be a good choice. Single/Double Action auto, no safety lever to mess with, VERY good shooter, and mild recoil compaired to some of my others. jmho

[GeorgeSSSS]

Originally Posted by Big Z

... I've harvested Bear with Rifle and bow and arrow, never with pistol. I carry a 44 redhawk in bear country. I also handload, and make some serious thumpers! ...

Big Z: What weight and type of bullet do you handload for bear in your 44 redhawk? I was thinking of 270 grain JSP. What's your opinion?

George SSSS

[Big Z]

Originally Posted by GeorgeSSSS

Big Z: What weight and type of bullet do you handload for bear in your 44 redhawk? I was thinking of 270 grain JSP. What's your opinion?

George SSSS

This sums up my opnion! -----BIG!

Your 300 grain with 19 gr of H110 is about right, I use 20.0 of H110 with my 300gr cast.

The reason for cast, hard cast bullets is that it is a solid that we don't want or expect to expand. At 44 or 45 caliber, we already have a big hole. Any expansion in a hand gun bullet, at handgun velocities, is so uncertain and also limits (stops) penetration and therefore killing power. It is far better to punch a 44 caliber hole all the way through than a 76 caliber hole a few inches. There is only so much energy available and if it is used up destroying the bullet and making wide shallow wounds it is of little use. We do not want a big bore revolver bullet to expand but just perform like a solid.

Cast Performance makes very good LBT style hard (BHN 21) cast heat treated solids. The heat treatment makes them hard but not brittle. In the old days we cast our own and to make them very hard we would add so much antimony that they would get brittle and actuall crumble around the edges at impact, almost as bad as expansion. Also Bear Tooth Bullets makes these hard cast heat treated solids. There are three basic styles, Long Flat Nose (LFN), Wide Long Nose (WLN), and Wide Flat Nose (WFN). Each having some advantage for certain application over the other. The LFN is the long range bullet (200-300 yds) and offers the best profile for long shots. The WFN gives the best terminal performance and likely the best choice for most hunting applications at normal handgun range (0-75yds) and the WLN is a compromise between the two and often the most accurate. Note, they all have flat noses. That adds to the wounding capability and impact stability for straight line penetration, hits like a hammer. Cast bullets can be had sized to .429", .430" or .431" (for the 44) as needed to fit the cylinder throats, (CP's normally come sized .430")which will give better accuracy and velocity. The WFN's have a full diameter band that loads touching the throats, if the bullets are too big you will have to push hard to get them in the cylinder. Normally throats of the cylinders will accept up .431". Only Freedom Arms makes very tight, uniform cylinders. My 5 1/2" barrel Ruger SBH will shoot the 290 gr LFN Bear Tooth into about an inch and a half at fifty yards, and that is as good as I can do with the iron sights. This load is 20.0 grains of Vihta N110, a better powder than the ball powders, and velocity is 1294 fps. That's about all I can get from the little 5 1/2" 44 Mag. I use the same powder charge for the CP 300 WFN and velocity is 1289 fps. Pressure is about 36,000 psi and it burns very clean, no smoke, no unburned powder. And the best part, same velocity at -20F or +70F.

Snowwolfe is using a solid bullet made of copper. I have very limited experience with them and can't say how well they will do, my concern is do they fit the throats of the cylinder as well as my custom cast bullets can. If Brooks made them for him I guess they could be sized to the throats of his revolver. Also a lighter bullet will not carry as much momentum so, even though energy is higher with the increased velocity, your performance may vary. I'll tip my hat to him since he has the good experience with them and I'm sure he's right about the penetration and killing power. There is a limit at which cast bullets can be driven and not break up at impact (about 1800 fps) and that limit will be higher for copper. I will say that a cast bullet is almost always faster at less pressure than a jacketed and I would think solid copper, due to the lower friction of the lead vs copper. We would have to do some checks on that, grain for grain of powder and bullet, and chronograph everything. More work!


Check out Laser Cast Bullets @ Oregon trail

[evldave]

Originally Posted by Big Z

This sums up my opnion! -----BIG!

Your 300 grain with 19 gr of H110 is about right, I use 20.0 of H110 with my 300gr cast.

The reason for cast, hard cast bullets is that it is a solid that we don't want or expect to expand. At 44 or 45 caliber, we already have a big hole. Any expansion in a hand gun bullet, at handgun velocities, is so uncertain and also limits (stops) penetration and therefore killing power. It is far better to punch a 44 caliber hole all the way through than a 76 caliber hole a few inches. There is only so much energy available and if it is used up destroying the bullet and making wide shallow wounds it is of little use. We do not want a big bore revolver bullet to expand but just perform like a solid.

Cast Performance makes very good LBT style hard (BHN 21) cast heat treated solids. The heat treatment makes them hard but not brittle. In the old days we cast our own and to make them very hard we would add so much antimony that they would get brittle and actuall crumble around the edges at impact, almost as bad as expansion. Also Bear Tooth Bullets makes these hard cast heat treated solids. There are three basic styles, Long Flat Nose (LFN), Wide Long Nose (WLN), and Wide Flat Nose (WFN). Each having some advantage for certain application over the other. The LFN is the long range bullet (200-300 yds) and offers the best profile for long shots. The WFN gives the best terminal performance and likely the best choice for most hunting applications at normal handgun range (0-75yds) and the WLN is a compromise between the two and often the most accurate. Note, they all have flat noses. That adds to the wounding capability and impact stability for straight line penetration, hits like a hammer. Cast bullets can be had sized to .429", .430" or .431" (for the 44) as needed to fit the cylinder throats, (CP's normally come sized .430")which will give better accuracy and velocity. The WFN's have a full diameter band that loads touching the throats, if the bullets are too big you will have to push hard to get them in the cylinder. Normally throats of the cylinders will accept up .431". Only Freedom Arms makes very tight, uniform cylinders. My 5 1/2" barrel Ruger SBH will shoot the 290 gr LFN Bear Tooth into about an inch and a half at fifty yards, and that is as good as I can do with the iron sights. This load is 20.0 grains of Vihta N110, a better powder than the ball powders, and velocity is 1294 fps. That's about all I can get from the little 5 1/2" 44 Mag. I use the same powder charge for the CP 300 WFN and velocity is 1289 fps. Pressure is about 36,000 psi and it burns very clean, no smoke, no unburned powder. And the best part, same velocity at -20F or +70F.

Snowwolfe is using a solid bullet made of copper. I have very limited experience with them and can't say how well they will do, my concern is do they fit the throats of the cylinder as well as my custom cast bullets can. If Brooks made them for him I guess they could be sized to the throats of his revolver. Also a lighter bullet will not carry as much momentum so, even though energy is higher with the increased velocity, your performance may vary. I'll tip my hat to him since he has the good experience with them and I'm sure he's right about the penetration and killing power. There is a limit at which cast bullets can be driven and not break up at impact (about 1800 fps) and that limit will be higher for copper. I will say that a cast bullet is almost always faster at less pressure than a jacketed and I would think solid copper, due to the lower friction of the lead vs copper. We would have to do some checks on that, grain for grain of powder and bullet, and chronograph everything. More work!


Check out Laser Cast Bullets @ Oregon trail

way more than I understand, but I can print and take w/me to call BS at a gunshow. Thanks for the help!

[PARAGON]

Originally Posted by evldave

What do you consider a professional? A cop?

Being a law enforcement officer, in no way, entitles one to being a Home Defense nor a handgun professional.

You are ignorant, want to continue to be ignorant and no one else can change that but you. If that .22 is so effective, why not take it with you to stop the bears? Your reply to that question is the same reason why you don't plan to employ the .22 as a home defense weapon. It's simply ignorance to suggest that it is, in any manner, effective. The capacity is a moot point. You can purchase a .45ACP which will hold 15 rounds. Recoil is a joke, if that is your reasoning. Simple practice will provide the necessary skill to employ the use of the handgun without it becoming an issue.

[evldave]

Originally Posted by PARAGON

Being a law enforcement officer, in no way, entitles one to being a Home Defense nor a handgun professional.

You are ignorant, want to continue to be ignorant and no one else can change that but you. If that .22 is so effective, why not take it with you to stop the bears? Your reply to that question is the same reason why you don't plan to employ the .22 as a home defense weapon. It's simply ignorance to suggest that it is, in any manner, effective. The capacity is a moot point. You can purchase a .45ACP which will hold 15 rounds. Recoil is a joke, if that is your reasoning. Simple practice will provide the necessary skill to employ the use of the handgun without it becoming an issue.

Dude, you need to calm the fuk down. I'm looking for advice, not an ass-reaming. I've got friends, who know what they are talking about, saying small caliber w/many rounds, with low recoil, is good for home defense (keep pulling the trigger, most will hit). People I know who are willing to have a rational conversation about it sure outweigh some dickwad on the internet who obviously can't have a normal conversation without throwing insults around.

[PARAGON]

Originally Posted by evldave

Dude, you need to calm the fuk down. I'm looking for advice, not an ass-reaming. I've got friends, who know what they are talking about, saying small caliber w/many rounds, with low recoil, is good for home defense (keep pulling the trigger, most will hit). People I know who are willing to have a rational conversation about it sure outweigh some dickwad on the internet who obviously can't have a normal conversation without throwing insults around.

When you would like to have a "rational conversation" feel free to join in.

There's nothing rational about your logic. You want the "stopping power" for a bear, but not a person in your house?

"keep pulling the trigger, most will hit"!?!?!?!??!?! This is the type of ignorance I am referring to. It's simply not the case. If you would seek a professional's advice you would realize that most do not "hit", moreover with the trained such as SWAT or other LEOs you seem to subscribe to. Many times magazines are emptied at 10 feet without a single hit. You DO NOT have friends who know what they are talking about if they tell you to utilize a small caliber handgun for home defense in deference to other handguns.

Again, how do you rationalize wanting something that will "stop a bear", but say that you think a .22 is the best for home defense? Caliber size makes sense for the bear but doesn't for human? Saying you are ignorant is not an "insult." If you continue defending your stance, then you will be in the realm of stupid, which is insulting. Being ignorant is OK, but not attempting to learn and find out the facts from those who know is stupid.

And FWIW, I have not once told you to rely on anyone on this forum's advice. There are individuals and groups that are in the industry specifically for home defense. I have suggested you seek their advice. I provided a couple of links to two of some of the most notable ones.

[PARAGON]

Originally Posted by Alec W

Para is an ******* on elcova. All he does is insult people. Hey but if I was that fat I would have a huge chip on my shoulder too.

I'm sure your contribution is duly noted

[RIC-H0]

OK...After all the jumping back and forth, acusations and banter, what it really comes down to is, how to increase your odds of hitting an intruder(ie. recoil) with out endangering your children (ie, ricochets or sheetrock penetrations).
My recommendation FWIW is, get yourself a decent 357 revolver, when it home keep it loaded with 38cal. Glaser Blue (minimal ricochet), and when you get out and about load it with alternating 357 FMJ and Black Talons, this way if you must shoot through glass, the 1st shot will shatter and the follow-up with damage.
You can always bring along a speedloader if you need more, but odds are, you wont!
My Colt King Cobra has never let me down...
Hell... just the site of a big revolver has an intimidation factor.


Good luck in your search, but no matter what you get...Practice, Practice, Practice!!!

[GeorgeSSSS]

EvlDave: Big Z is making some good points at post #43 about using a solid 300 grain bullet instead of a 270 grain jsp. I've heard variations of this theme before regarding pistols and grizzley bears. I'm not certain I agree, but I'm not certain I disagree either.

Like I said, get some other opinions.

George SSSS

[.r.e.r.e.d.r.u.m.o.e.n]

Originally Posted by Alec W

Para is an ******* on elcova. All he does is insult people. Hey but if I was that fat I would have a huge chip on my shoulder too.

But instead your a POS that either intentionally killed your kid or are guilty of negligent homicide. Which is it? You POS.

Have you melted that hottun into a piece of slag or at least removed it?

[DennisAJC]

I think he murdered his son. But let's let the courts decide that.

Soon people are going to look at you differently Alec. The truth is coming soon.

Your pal,

Dennis

[evldave]

WTF? Seems like no thread is safe.

From the looks of things, for what I'm looking for (bear safety, don't care about home defense, I have a shotgun) a minimum .40 or .45 w/large load or larger caliber, maybe .44 w/ a smaller load. Since I'm going to be backpacking, seems like a smaller caliber with larger load would be better from a weight perpective. Now at least I have someplace to start when looking. Next step will be (ignore this insanity) to hit a gunshow or two, maybe some stores, and get a feel. Then borrow/rent guns and shoot to see how they feel. Thanks to all for their constructive comments on my original question. To all the rest, hope you have something better to do with your time.

[The Juice]

Originally Posted by evldave

WTF? Seems like no thread is safe.


To all the rest, hope you have something better to do with your time.

Didn't you hear? AlecW might have mudered his son and he might be going away for awhile.

I'll be keeping an eye on the papers man.