Protection vs Performance

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
Let us know when you wheeled somewhere besides your own backyard

Well, since the ball's rolling.............

Again, please re-read what I wrote. You've got an open invite to AZ to do wheeling that WILL hang you up on your open UCP.

Sean

[DTHVLY]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
In your opinion.... and a bad one at that.

I guess all those H1s and H2s with ladder type UCPs are somehow different than a H3. We slide our UCPs on H2s across all kinds of rocks.

Don't get your panties in a bunch. The UCP is better than nothing but if given the choice would you rather drag a ladder across a bed of jagged rocks or a sheet of smooth steel? Obviously the sheet of steel is going to make it easier because it has nothing to get hung up on.

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
Let us know when you wheeled somewhere besides your own backyard

Well, since the ball's rolling.............

Again, please re-read what I wrote. You've got an open invite to AZ to do wheeling that WILL hang you up on your open UCP.

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You have an open invite to come out of the closet </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I'm having so much fun in here with you.......

You are making me a wonderful wife.

(See, it doesn't take any real talent to insult people).

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Apparently it takes a little bit, because you certainly don't have any </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. F'n pathetic that that's all you came up with.

Care to admit you have a problem reading?

Sean

[CampMaster]

I stopped off at the dealership nearly a month ago to get the price for the UPC... still waiting!

They just aren't very motivated up here in the PNW!

What are the UPC's going for? Can you order them factory direct and do the install yourself? Especially since the dealers don't want the sale!!!

[Huck BB62]

What the hell happened? Do you know the story behind the picture? I've done that trail in a CJ7, a '67 Jeepster, and a Scout II. That's the toughy a little more than half way up the trail, how'd they roll the H2?

[Ipedog]

If you want to wheel better in the back country, why would you limit yourself?

Because its better to loose an inch of clearance (that can be regained with bigger tires) than to loose a transfer case and be stuck in the back country?

Just a thought...

[ketcat]

This a picture of the RP and UCP after Sunflower Mine Loop trail. I know the pictures are not that good but the stuff hanging from the UCP is metal not paint. Can you imagine how the aluminum transfer case would have faired.

If your going off road get the RP and UCP.

[CampMaster]

So how do you keep the mud from packing in on top of the plate(s)?

or the UPC for that matter?

With the plate, don't you worry about heat build-up?

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Edd:
I am twitching

They make drugs for that.

If you are going to wheel where there are rocks, you need UCP. It's pretty simple. The extra clearance really doesn't matter if you break to the lack of.

Worst case is that you high center due to the supposed extra inch. That's a much better and easier scenario to solve than a busted pan or a rock banging around up in your driveline.

[f5fstop]

Originally posted by Sean K.:


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmen...5&stc=1&d=1143223579


f5fstop,

You make a very valid point especially concerning autos.....however, none of you have actually run a full belly pan, correct? I know several people running them on everything from small SUVs, to buggies to fullsizes....yes, heat builds up more at slow speed without air flow....

What I'm saying is: it's not significant enough to cause a transmission failure, IME. As you eloquently stated: transmission fluid and oils both have ranges of acceptable operating temperature. Unless we did a real test to find out just what the temps are running without a full belly skid and then with....how can ANYONE say for certain it will raise the temperature above the acceptable range? The obvious answer is: you can't. That is just my opinion though and you guys are welcome to your own (not that you need my permission).

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with my comments. That was not my intent. I was only trying to give my own personal experience with belly pans as well as some general comments about lift height vs. CoG.

Take care,
Sean

Maybe I should have further qualified my response since it appears to have been missed.
First, I'm talking an H3, and probably goes over to an H2 and H1, but I will be first to state I'm not that familiar with these vehicles.
Second, I'm talking a vehicle with a full body, not a frame unit. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to note that the type of vehicle you are showing in the photos, would have plenty of airflow from top of the vehicle since there is NO body. In addition, heat rises, and it appears there is no place to trap heat and cook the fluid. I don't believe you would be driving this down Interstate 10 at 75 mph, or doing any city, stop and go driving.
I also believe that running rigs like that would tend to blow the trans for other reasons, thus when it is rebuilt, I would hope you would use new fluid.

Now, let me explain something. ALL GM authorized accessories have to be tested by GM.
First, if they affect a safety area, such as a front brush guard, they must be crash tested to assure it has no affect on the front discriminating SIR sensor. Don't want a front brush guard that is so strong, the front sensor does not trigger when required. Someone could get seriously hurt. This means plenty of input from safety engineers, as well as body engineers.

Second, they must not screw with emissions, or else places like CA will come after GM with a big hammer (called a recall). Other states would also be involved like in the NE states. This means input from the emission engineering section in the emission lab. If there are sound concerns, such as an exhaust system, then the requirements for states must be followed.

Third, it must not affect the warranty of the vehicle. In the case of the underbody protection, yes, there was input from the transmission engineering section. Concerns of overheating are stressed. Testing is done on all types of shields, over a long period of time, and then the approvals are given.
Again, any testing is done on the full H3, not an H3 without a body, it has to be a production intent vehicle.

If heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM (or the owner), then why does the owner's manual state under normal use, the trans fluid must be changed at 100K, but if under severe service it must be changed at 50K:

(h) Change automatic transmission fluid and filter if the vehicle is mainly driven under one or more of these conditions:

• In heavy city traffic where the outside temperature regularly reaches 90°F (32°C) or higher.

• In hilly or mountainous terrain.

• When doing frequent trailer towing.

• Uses such as found in taxi, police, or delivery service.

These four types of service allow trans fluid to get hot and stay hot, thus breaking down the fluid.

As I said in my previous post, GM assumes (yes this might be an incorrect assumption) that the person who has this underbody protection installed will leave it on the vehicle at all times. They will not install before running a trail, and remove after the trail has been run.
If a person desires a full underbody protection, and installs when required, and removes after, problems with heat destroying the fluid would be minimal (my assumption, not GM's).
For a rig like you show, I'm sure the protection stays on all the time, but again, that will not be used for commuting in rush hour traffic, or at least not on a normal basis.

I will also say that the trail you show looks like a hell of a lot of fun, but I will also state that my H3 will never run it. Maybe I'm wrong, and I would love to see someone prove me wrong, but I don't believe the H3 is designed to run a trail like that, even with a 2-6 inch body lift.

[HIHUMMER]

I do belive that the one w/o UCP was taking far greater risks each time the clearance was tested.

hehehe! But remember...that extra clearance w/out the UCP got me over that one rock on 6 that the other got stuck on...but agreed...I really need to get the UCP.

[Wile E. Coyote]

An inch or two makes no difference when you are on a serious trail. You can't measure it anyways. What will make a diffence is having some protection underneath because inevitably it's going to get hit. 1/4" steel plate is the way to go. It's going to weigh maybe around 200 lbs for the one previously discussed by someone else, however, if you have it segmented, it'll be easier to manage when doing the maintenances. Also you can place a jack at any spot and it'll lift the vehicle up. Very important when stuck on a trail, and you will one day. I have 1/4" armor on my old vehicle and I never regreted it. It will give you more confidence to try tougher courses without worrying about damages. Plus it's kind of fun watching bystanders scrinch at the grinding and scratching noise coming from the armor scraping on rocks and you are the only one that knows there is no damage.

One more thing, when you're on a serious trail, you'll be tilted and offbalanced. It's going to feel very awkward. On top of that, you may bounce a little bit too. Sometimes, you are going to wish that your vehicle wasn't lifted so high. Just my two cents worth.

Are there any vendors that are thinking about carrying 1/4" armor?

[f5fstop]

I have never like the idea of losing an inch , but it is better than destroying a tranny pan or a case.

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
That particular comment was really in response to, "we put 7,500lbs on a ladder-type UCP and drag it across a pointed rock with no problems."

What I meant was on the trails I've run, (and hopefully many H3s will begin running as modifications permit), it would be happening quite frequently with a ladder type support. Someone mentioned earlier about picking good lines and tire placement.....true in a perfect world, you can pick your way through and the holes in the undercarriage will be a non-issue.....but Murphy and that f<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span>ed up law of his always seems to show up at the worst possible time and a tire slips off line and then you're stuck. Know what I mean?

Does the H3 forum just draw the dumbasses out out of the woodwork or what?

So, on the trails you run, rocks are somehow worse than any others that anybody else does. They just are soooo badass that you would have problems frequently if you had a ladder type UCP, huh? ****ing idiot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paragon,

Wow, you're a pleasant individual. Anywho....are you the guy from Pirate or not? Just curious, as if it was you (search is down) you weren't a jerk there. Again, if it is you....must be that you're at "home" here so you think you can be an internet bully. That's cool. Not everyone's gonna get along I guess.

If you doubt what I've said, bring your UCP equipped H3 (I have no idea what sort of Hummer you have....perhaps it's an H2 or H1; doesn't really matter)....to AZ and we'll run some trails and you can see for yourself what I mean. (I figure you'll probably say it's too far....perfectly good excuse).

***EDIT*** Here's an example of trails we run in AZ and while it may not be the best example of what we're talking about.....I'm sure you can get a feel for the kind of wheeling.



It may or may not work....I don't think Pirate will allow direct linking so you may have to copy and paste. *****

I'm just here to get other people involved in 4 wheeling and to have a good time and meet people. If my comments and experience are not welcome or wanted...fine, I'll leave.

f5fstop,

You make a very valid point especially concerning autos.....however, none of you have actually run a full belly pan, correct? I know several people running them on everything from small SUVs, to buggies to fullsizes....yes, heat builds up more at slow speed without air flow....

What I'm saying is: it's not significant enough to cause a transmission failure, IME. As you eloquently stated: transmission fluid and oils both have ranges of acceptable operating temperature. Unless we did a real test to find out just what the temps are running without a full belly skid and then with....how can ANYONE say for certain it will raise the temperature above the acceptable range? The obvious answer is: you can't. That is just my opinion though and you guys are welcome to your own (not that you need my permission).

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with my comments. That was not my intent. I was only trying to give my own personal experience with belly pans as well as some general comments about lift height vs. CoG.

Take care,
Sean

[HummerNewbie]

I can tell you from personal experience that you will be glad you have it down there. It gave me the confidence to just go for it in Tellico. Yes there were a couple of times where the second day that I got hung up a little or scraped but HI didn't due to the UCP. But ask her what her stress level was the first day when we got to the first real obstacle. Knowing the UCP was down there, I just went for it and didn't really worry. Knowing what I do now, I wish I would have at least checked into getting the 35"s instead. If I had, I would not have lost any clearance at all with the UCP.

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by f5fstop:

Can't answer all, but just to say, read my previous posts. I have stated that using a full underbody shield when off-roading will probably cause no problems, if it is a temporary item. The problem is, GM assumes you will leave whatever they sell on the vehicle at all times. This is the problem. I don't care if you are going 100 mph, if there is no airflow around the trans, and the heat generated by the trans and the cats is trapped, it will cause the trans fluid to degrade at a faster rate. I do not mean to imply it will show an overheat condition, it will just heat it up and cause it to degrade faster than designed (the severe maintenance schedule). If the engine flashes a code for overheated trans fluid, you have a big problem.
Will you notice this slippage? No, it will be gradual overtime, until it is a problem. Someone driving a vehicle, where the trans starts to slip over a period of time will not notice this slippage, it will be so slight, it will seem normal...........................

My last words on the subject are: You whatever you wish to use, chances are in some cases the trans will fry outside of warranty. Just don't bash the manufacturer; GM, Chrysler, etc., if it does fail.

Well, I guess you and I have re-hashed this to the point of repeating ourselves.....

The above post does bring about something you touched upon earlier and definitely has merit. As you and I both stated, the belly pan will increase the temperature and as you also stated before, it would be wise to follow an increased service interval (i.e., change the fluid more frequently) should one choose to go with a full belly pan.

I think where we may still disagree is whether or not the increase will be significant enough to cause damage (especially if one decreased the time between transmission flushes), but as you said it would probably be imperceptible to the driver.

In any case, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree unless one of your transmission engineers wouldn't mind giving his input.

Take care and happy trails.

Sean

[Wile E. Coyote]

Suite yourself. I've done a lot of trails including the Rubicon and like I said, it's just my two cents worth. Good luck.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Hey Paragon, I had just about had enough with you're A55, so let's clear up the air about this string of posted discussion once and for all. First of all, it's obvious that me and you are on different planets here. From the picture you posted, you have a H2 SUT. Well, I have a H3. You paid twice as much as I did and I get twice the gas mileage as you. You probably had someone else upgrade your rig and you paid twice the cost of the parts. Well I do it myself and it's done right the first time.

Actually, none of these matters, because you obviously think you have a rig that defies the law of gravity. So, if I offended you in some way by saying that "when you're on a serious trail, you'll be tilted and offbalanced. It's going to feel very awkward...", well that's the reality on my planet, my friend. You're vehicle is well balanced from the production line and it's very nice. I am not knocking that. When I say "tilted and offbalanced", what I am referring to is the terrain. On a serious terrain, it's going to tilt your vehicle. It's going to make you feel offbalanced. Have you every taken your vehicle to the manufacturer's spec of maximum 40 degrees side tilt or even 30 degrees for that matter. Try a 25 degree and I'll bet you'll piss in your pants. On top of that, do it while on an uneven terrain, while turning and rolling instead of on a simulated course like the ones that the dealer builds to impress the potential buyers. That's all sales gimic, just like the crap you been hearing that a Liberty has gone thru the Rubicon Trail...Liberty...HA HA HA HA HA HAAH. That's the five mile of paved trail after the real Rubicon Trail. I know you've never been there or else you wouldn't be saying this. Check out this web page if you want to know more about it. Rubicon Trail

Hey, just stick to your cobblestone trails that you showed on your picture, and you'll be just fine. What was that you said earlier, "Fat, dumb and happy" or something like that...

By the way, overheating from armor plating...HA! you don't even know how the plate is set up underneath. I'll let you figure that one out by your self.

By the way, I thought this was an H3 Discussion Board, What the fukc is an H2 SUT doing here? Lost....

One last thing, a little word of wisdom, "You don't know what you don't know".
Ponder on this attached picture...

[Hal]

I have the UCP as well, but I knew when I installed it that 35"s were eventually going on the truck and a lift kit too. If one of those items are not in your future then the UCP may not be necessary for the type of wheeling you plan to do.

Another thought to bear in mind if anyone is planning to get UCP, it may not be compatible with a suspension lift (or may need modification). Anyone know about this?

I'm hoping it will work with the RC lifts that are coming out soon.

[nmikes]

That looks pretty slick, seems though in other posts on the subject that you might have a problem with things overheating down there as it looks like its not going to provide a lot of ventilation. F5 might be able to comment... is there anything down there that needs some air?