Protection vs Performance

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by f5fstop:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmen...5&stc=1&d=1143223579


f5fstop,

You make a very valid point especially concerning autos.....however, none of you have actually run a full belly pan, correct? I know several people running them on everything from small SUVs, to buggies to fullsizes....yes, heat builds up more at slow speed without air flow....

What I'm saying is: it's not significant enough to cause a transmission failure, IME. As you eloquently stated: transmission fluid and oils both have ranges of acceptable operating temperature. Unless we did a real test to find out just what the temps are running without a full belly skid and then with....how can ANYONE say for certain it will raise the temperature above the acceptable range? The obvious answer is: you can't. That is just my opinion though and you guys are welcome to your own (not that you need my permission).

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with my comments. That was not my intent. I was only trying to give my own personal experience with belly pans as well as some general comments about lift height vs. CoG.

Take care,
Sean

Maybe I should have further qualified my response since it appears to have been missed.
First, I'm talking an H3, and probably goes over to an H2 and H1, but I will be first to state I'm not that familiar with these vehicles.
Second, I'm talking a vehicle with a full body, not a frame unit. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to note that the type of vehicle you are showing in the photos, would have plenty of airflow from top of the vehicle since there is NO body. In addition, heat rises, and it appears there is no place to trap heat and cook the fluid. I don't believe you would be driving this down Interstate 10 at 75 mph, or doing any city, stop and go driving.
I also believe that running rigs like that would tend to blow the trans for other reasons, thus when it is rebuilt, I would hope you would use new fluid.

Now, let me explain something. ALL GM authorized accessories have to be tested by GM.
First, if they affect a safety area, such as a front brush guard, they must be crash tested to assure it has no affect on the front discriminating SIR sensor. Don't want a front brush guard that is so strong, the front sensor does not trigger when required. Someone could get seriously hurt. This means plenty of input from safety engineers, as well as body engineers.

Second, they must not screw with emissions, or else places like CA will come after GM with a big hammer (called a recall). Other states would also be involved like in the NE states. This means input from the emission engineering section in the emission lab. If there are sound concerns, such as an exhaust system, then the requirements for states must be followed.

Third, it must not affect the warranty of the vehicle. In the case of the underbody protection, yes, there was input from the transmission engineering section. Concerns of overheating are stressed. Testing is done on all types of shields, over a long period of time, and then the approvals are given.
Again, any testing is done on the full H3, not an H3 without a body, it has to be a production intent vehicle.

If heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM (or the owner), then why does the owner's manual state under normal use, the trans fluid must be changed at 100K, but if under severe service it must be changed at 50K:

(h) Change automatic transmission fluid and filter if the vehicle is mainly driven under one or more of these conditions:

• In heavy city traffic where the outside temperature regularly reaches 90°F (32°C) or higher.

• In hilly or mountainous terrain.

• When doing frequent trailer towing.

• Uses such as found in taxi, police, or delivery service.

These four types of service allow trans fluid to get hot and stay hot, thus breaking down the fluid.

As I said in my previous post, GM assumes (yes this might be an incorrect assumption) that the person who has this underbody protection installed will leave it on the vehicle at all times. They will not install before running a trail, and remove after the trail has been run.
If a person desires a full underbody protection, and installs when required, and removes after, problems with heat destroying the fluid would be minimal (my assumption, not GM's).
For a rig like you show, I'm sure the protection stays on all the time, but again, that will not be used for commuting in rush hour traffic, or at least not on a normal basis.

I will also say that the trail you show looks like a hell of a lot of fun, but I will also state that my H3 will never run it. Maybe I'm wrong, and I would love to see someone prove me wrong, but I don't believe the H3 is designed to run a trail like that, even with a 2-6 inch body lift. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

f5fstop,
I hesitate to even reply considering my comments seem to be just making more people angry, however, I would just like to say again (and you quoted it above) that I was also talking about full bodied rigs like small SUVs (Cherokess, Tjs, Cjs, 4Runners) as well as fullsize trucks (some have a bed, most don't), so in all fairness, it wasn't just buggies I was referring to (and most buggies have more heat restriction b/c unlike the one pictured or mine, yet, they have full floor pans and a much more confined space for the trans/tcase(s) to be housed)....some of these vehicles are in fact, daily drivers and DO NOT have an overheating problem; but you're correct, most are not driven on the road regularly.

This brings up another point though. As you pointed out in your other post....low speed crawling will generate more heat b/c of lack of air flow. Stop and go driving and highway driving are going to see more air flow and associated lower temps just b/c of the higher speeds, right? (Now, I'm not talking about a mud packed skid.....again, my narrow viewpoint coming out).

I'm not sure I understood your first two points about GM testing accessories and having to meet emissions standards. Do you mean that no accessory should be put on the vehicle unless GM approves it through their engineering and test department? Please elaborate.

As for your 3rd point about warranty of the vehicle....I never said, "heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM" and I surely didn't mean to imply that. Heat is the number one reason an automatic transmisssion fails....but it's too much heat. We've yet to determine through any kind of analysis that a skid would raise the temperature enough to be "too much". That's all I was saying.

You seem to have an intimate insight of the transmission engineering process at GM according to this quote: "the trans engineers at GM I know would never recommend a full body undershield". So did GM actually test the UCP with full shielding? Perhaps you know something we all do not. Any chance you could get one of your friends to register on the site and discuss the issue in detail? As an engineer myself, most of us nerds love nothing more than to talk tech.

Oh, and please don't take my comments as anything more than my opinion. I feel like we're adding some technical discussion to a thread that has been devoid of it and is really just people's opinions not backed by any real experience (coupled with childish insults).

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't ****ing flatter yourself there sport. You've already displayed you level of intelligence.

You have added nothing but confusion since you obviously don't know much about a modern vehicle or one that is used both on or off-road. You float from forum to forum and try to write your little books to see how many words you can spurt into a post, but in the end, you offer no real advice.

It's really starting to get insulting that you assume that you have the end all answer and those of us here that work for AM General, GM, Aftermarket Manufacturers, Retailers, 4wd shops, yet you want to purport the position that since you have not personally approved of a "test" then it must not be so.

Logic doesn't have to be tested, except by idiots. If trapping a hot exhaust, a hot transmission between 2 layers of sheet metal and a boxed frame makes sense to you when the option of having the same protection with an open design doesn't, please, just move on, or it's going to get a lot more flamey around here for you.

[KenP]

Originally posted by HummerNewbie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DarthKarl:
The UCP is cheap insurance. If you hit a rock just right without the UCP, you'll be getting a tow and a big repair bill.

From what we heard it would be at least $1K if you had to have a tow truck come get you in Tellico. I am a lot happier spending less on the rocker rails and UCP than one tow would have cost me let alone the repair bill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>We'd have pulled you down the hill... for only $950!

I've seen situations that if you didn't have UCP, you'd have a real problem with damage. We're going to put something stronger and wider on Big Nasty just so we can ride along the rocks without worrying.

[Huck BB62]

Hey Woody, is that the Miller Jeep Trail?

[Sewie]

Campmaster-

I Got mine from H2parts.com for ~$300 Takes less than an hour to bolt on. Tell your dealer to GFthemselves.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
That particular comment was really in response to, "we put 7,500lbs on a ladder-type UCP and drag it across a pointed rock with no problems."

What I meant was on the trails I've run, (and hopefully many H3s will begin running as modifications permit), it would be happening quite frequently with a ladder type support. Someone mentioned earlier about picking good lines and tire placement.....true in a perfect world, you can pick your way through and the holes in the undercarriage will be a non-issue.....but Murphy and that f<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span>ed up law of his always seems to show up at the worst possible time and a tire slips off line and then you're stuck. Know what I mean?

Does the H3 forum just draw the dumbasses out out of the woodwork or what?

So, on the trails you run, rocks are somehow worse than any others that anybody else does. They just are soooo badass that you would have problems frequently if you had a ladder type UCP, huh? ****ing idiot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paragon,

Wow, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah

Take care,
Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Let us know when you wheeled somewhere besides your own backyard

[h2co-pilot]

Originally posted by HIHUMMER:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do belive that the one w/o UCP was taking far greater risks each time the clearance was tested.

hehehe! But remember...that extra clearance w/out the UCP got me over that one rock on 6 that the other got stuck on... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it was just because we knew where to stack the rocks on the line the second time.

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by Alec W:
Actually it does. I'm a Supreme Hummer Lord

So let it be written....so let it be done.

Sean

[ketcat]

UCP: If I ever get the H3 in the air I will take some better pic's. This one really does not show how much the UCP has been used but it's all I have.

[f5fstop]

Originally posted by nmikes:
That looks pretty slick, seems though in other posts on the subject that you might have a problem with things overheating down there as it looks like its not going to provide a lot of ventilation. F5 might be able to comment... is there anything down there that needs some air?

Can't say. However, if I was to add something to the GM UCP unit, I would add some quarter steel to the existing UCP. Be a lot cheaper, and would not need to add at all points.
Just measure some of the squares where extra protection might be nice, have the metal cut in squares, lay under the vehicle, drill and attach.
I'm not worried about losing one inch (8.1 inches is still respectable , even with running stock 33's. (More ground clearance than my Vette.)

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by f5fstop:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmen...5&stc=1&d=1143223579


f5fstop,

You make a very valid point especially concerning autos.....however, none of you have actually run a full belly pan, correct? I know several people running them on everything from small SUVs, to buggies to fullsizes....yes, heat builds up more at slow speed without air flow....

What I'm saying is: it's not significant enough to cause a transmission failure, IME. As you eloquently stated: transmission fluid and oils both have ranges of acceptable operating temperature. Unless we did a real test to find out just what the temps are running without a full belly skid and then with....how can ANYONE say for certain it will raise the temperature above the acceptable range? The obvious answer is: you can't. That is just my opinion though and you guys are welcome to your own (not that you need my permission).

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with my comments. That was not my intent. I was only trying to give my own personal experience with belly pans as well as some general comments about lift height vs. CoG.

Take care,
Sean

Maybe I should have further qualified my response since it appears to have been missed.
First, I'm talking an H3, and probably goes over to an H2 and H1, but I will be first to state I'm not that familiar with these vehicles.
Second, I'm talking a vehicle with a full body, not a frame unit. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to note that the type of vehicle you are showing in the photos, would have plenty of airflow from top of the vehicle since there is NO body. In addition, heat rises, and it appears there is no place to trap heat and cook the fluid. I don't believe you would be driving this down Interstate 10 at 75 mph, or doing any city, stop and go driving.
I also believe that running rigs like that would tend to blow the trans for other reasons, thus when it is rebuilt, I would hope you would use new fluid.

Now, let me explain something. ALL GM authorized accessories have to be tested by GM.
First, if they affect a safety area, such as a front brush guard, they must be crash tested to assure it has no affect on the front discriminating SIR sensor. Don't want a front brush guard that is so strong, the front sensor does not trigger when required. Someone could get seriously hurt. This means plenty of input from safety engineers, as well as body engineers.

Second, they must not screw with emissions, or else places like CA will come after GM with a big hammer (called a recall). Other states would also be involved like in the NE states. This means input from the emission engineering section in the emission lab. If there are sound concerns, such as an exhaust system, then the requirements for states must be followed.

Third, it must not affect the warranty of the vehicle. In the case of the underbody protection, yes, there was input from the transmission engineering section. Concerns of overheating are stressed. Testing is done on all types of shields, over a long period of time, and then the approvals are given.
Again, any testing is done on the full H3, not an H3 without a body, it has to be a production intent vehicle.

If heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM (or the owner), then why does the owner's manual state under normal use, the trans fluid must be changed at 100K, but if under severe service it must be changed at 50K:

(h) Change automatic transmission fluid and filter if the vehicle is mainly driven under one or more of these conditions:

• In heavy city traffic where the outside temperature regularly reaches 90°F (32°C) or higher.

• In hilly or mountainous terrain.

• When doing frequent trailer towing.

• Uses such as found in taxi, police, or delivery service.

These four types of service allow trans fluid to get hot and stay hot, thus breaking down the fluid.

As I said in my previous post, GM assumes (yes this might be an incorrect assumption) that the person who has this underbody protection installed will leave it on the vehicle at all times. They will not install before running a trail, and remove after the trail has been run.
If a person desires a full underbody protection, and installs when required, and removes after, problems with heat destroying the fluid would be minimal (my assumption, not GM's).
For a rig like you show, I'm sure the protection stays on all the time, but again, that will not be used for commuting in rush hour traffic, or at least not on a normal basis.

I will also say that the trail you show looks like a hell of a lot of fun, but I will also state that my H3 will never run it. Maybe I'm wrong, and I would love to see someone prove me wrong, but I don't believe the H3 is designed to run a trail like that, even with a 2-6 inch body lift. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

f5fstop,
I hesitate to even reply considering my comments seem to be just making more people angry, however, I would just like to say again (and you quoted it above) that I was also talking about full bodied rigs like small SUVs (Cherokess, Tjs, Cjs, 4Runners) as well as fullsize trucks (some have a bed, most don't), so in all fairness, it wasn't just buggies I was referring to (and most buggies have more heat restriction b/c unlike the one pictured or mine, yet, they have full floor pans and a much more confined space for the trans/tcase(s) to be housed)....some of these vehicles are in fact, daily drivers and DO NOT have an overheating problem; but you're correct, most are not driven on the road regularly.

This brings up another point though. As you pointed out in your other post....low speed crawling will generate more heat b/c of lack of air flow. Stop and go driving and highway driving are going to see more air flow and associated lower temps just b/c of the higher speeds, right? (Now, I'm not talking about a mud packed skid.....again, my narrow viewpoint coming out).

I'm not sure I understood your first two points about GM testing accessories and having to meet emissions standards. Do you mean that no accessory should be put on the vehicle unless GM approves it through their engineering and test department? Please elaborate.

As for your 3rd point about warranty of the vehicle....I never said, "heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM" and I surely didn't mean to imply that. Heat is the number one reason an automatic transmisssion fails....but it's too much heat. We've yet to determine through any kind of analysis that a skid would raise the temperature enough to be "too much". That's all I was saying.

You seem to have an intimate insight of the transmission engineering process at GM according to this quote: "the trans engineers at GM I know would never recommend a full body undershield". So did GM actually test the UCP with full shielding? Perhaps you know something we all do not. Any chance you could get one of your friends to register on the site and discuss the issue in detail? As an engineer myself, most of us nerds love nothing more than to talk tech.

Oh, and please don't take my comments as anything more than my opinion. I feel like we're adding some technical discussion to a thread that has been devoid of it and is really just people's opinions not backed by any real experience (coupled with childish insults).

Sean

[DTHVLY]

Those plates were made for a 4runner, but you could take some measurements of the H3 and have some made at a metal fab shop. The belly pan should be easy the front skid would be a little tougher because of the bends.

Here's what it looks like mounted

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by Sean K.:


***EDIT*** figured it out.

F<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span>

S<span class="ev_code_BLACK">hit</span> yeah you did

[nmikes]

I've already got well over an 400 pounds worth of crap for off roading... after I get the hilift jack, winch with bumper, lifted and larger tires, couple jerry cans of fuel... I'm not sure how much a .25 inch plate of steel weighs, but I'm thinking its starting to really add up. Just how durable is this transmission... I don't remember asking if it had a oil cooler on it, but I'm thinking that and maybe a triple lock might not be a bad idea. I'd be entrested in know what any of you wizards out there think of this link...

http://www.partshp.com/Converters.htm

[Edd]

I am twitching to lift my H3, so I have been watching the RC lift development. I was told one of the reasons the lift is taking so long to come out is because it had to be re-engineered because the UCP designed changed from the original UCP offered by HUMMER. So, the RC lifts should be compatible. Now if only they would HURRY UP!!!!

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
Oh, and I found the video I was referring to when talking to Paragon.....it was actually DRTYFN's silver H2. My apologies to DRTYFN and Paragon.

Sean

WTH are you talking about. Are you now hearing voices in your head? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but if ONCE AGAIN you'd learn to read, you'd realize I'd already mentioned this here:

"***EDIT*** Any chance "Paragon" has a (I think) yellow H2 that he posted pics of on Pirate4x4.com where he was climbing Escalator? If so, I'm the same "Sean" that sent you a PM about all the a-holes making snide comments in your thread. If it's you....hope all's well. :wave: (guess you guys don't have the "wave" icon).

Make sense now or do you still need help? Hint: it's on page 3.....my first post to this thread.

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Does your mommie have to wipe the drool from the side of your face?

If you'll look on page 3, a few posts up above yours, you'll see my response.

You ****ing idiot. Why in the hell would I go back 3 days later and read a post that you edited?

"Protection vs. Performance", sounds like the new slogan for a condom commercial.

S.

[Sewie]

Originally posted by DarthKarl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ipedog:
Because its better to loose an inch of clearance (that can be regained with bigger tires) than to loose a transfer case and be stuck in the back country?

x2!

If you are wheeling somewhere where getting hung up on some rocks is an issue, I'll take losing an inch (or less) in clearance over the bill for a new t-case any day of the week.

The UCP is cheap insurance. If you hit a rock just right without the UCP, you'll be getting a tow and a big repair bill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

x3 Just slap some 35's on there and you'll get that clearance back.

[HummBebe]

Originally posted by Sewie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">By the way, I thought this was an H3 Discussion Board

Um, no. It's a HUMMER forum.

One last thing, a little word of wisdom, "You don't know what you don't know".

Fitting quote. Now look in the mirror and repeat it 100 times.

Oh, and GFY!!! Again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ketcat]

Originally posted by NEOCON1:
just thro on a set of 35's to get that inch back thats what i did . heres mine i will be putting the UC protection to use this weekend for the first time

Have fun putting the UCP to use. I put the MT/R 315's on last week and they really help off road. I would never go back to the 285's.

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by sfox:
For an H2 and an H3, given the weight of the vehicles and the trannies used for them, you get a lot of heating problems in them just with stock configurations........


See the difference between you and me is that I don't claim to know eveything about wheeling, I just know a whole hell of a lot about wheeling HUMMERS....moron......

S

My mistake. I had no idea H2s and H3s were borderline overheating with the stock configuration. This post isn't to beg forgiveness, seek acceptance or start an argument.....merely to acknowlege that I was wrong and once again apologize for being "grossly negligent" in my advice without "intimate knowledge" of the vehicles in question, as Pargon stated.

After reading the last comment in the above quote, I re-read my original post to this thread and it did come across as "know it all". My apologies for that as well. It wasn't my intention, but you know what they say about good intentions.

Take care,

Sean

***EDIT****Oh, and sfox, thanks for the kick in the pants as well as the explanation.