Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

Don't argue with me. Take it to the founding fathers.

A lot of what they established is totally lost. But heck, we have a Starbucks on every corner so it can't be that bad, right?

I hate Starbucks because of their gun control contributions. We need to start a new chain of NRA cafes.

In case it's at issue, to justify the WWII comparison, one thing that is important to me is that, in WWII, our enemies were pretty much out in the open. Our intellegence efforts were important and, greatfully, effective, but we were basically fighting our enemies' carriers, battleships, and the thousands of tanks and aircraft their millions of troops fielded against us. Our current enemies have little or no power without the benefit of remaining hidden. They cannot possibly hope to harm us in the open. We win, if at all, by uncovering them. That's why our efforts to uncover them is more imprtant now than in any conflict we have ever faced.

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin in 1759

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

I agree Ben. You should tell this to Marinehawk!

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

I agree Ben. You should tell this to Marinehawk!

I agree too Ben. As I suggested in my comments about the Saudis, I just think of essential liberties as things like the ability to, as we are doing here, criticize our government and also things like the protections against unreasonable searches; the ability to practice or criticize whatever religion we want; due process; etc ... I just don't think Ben was characterizing the right to not have your credit report looked at as an "Essential Liberty." I'm pretty sure he was talking about serious infringements on essential rights. I imagine Ben would not go for general martial law and suspension of the 1st and 4th amendments to fight this war. I doubt he'd care if someone looked as his or anyone's credit history.

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

I just don't think Ben was characterizing the right to not have your credit report looked at as an "Essential Liberty."

I agree with you. I'm not convinced that protection of credit information is an essential liberty.

HOWEVER........

All would, on paper, agree that we should not give up "essential liberties". But I think bparker's idea here is that no one asks the question about what an "essential liberty" is. The government is given unquestioned trust and a blank checkbook to do whatever it wants. All you have to do is whisper "in the interest of national security" and everyone is expected to shut their mouth and accept whatever they do.

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

I agree with you. I'm not convinced that protection of credit information is an essential liberty.

HOWEVER........

All would, on paper, agree that we should not give up "essential liberties". But I think bparker's idea here is that no one asks the question about what an "essential liberty" is. The government is given unquestioned trust and a blank checkbook to do whatever it wants. All you have to do is whisper "in the interest of national security" and everyone is expected to shut their mouth and accept whatever they do.

I understand your thinking. Maybe some of that is going on. I think we just see things from different perspectives. You seem to see more unreasonable accepting than complaining. I see more unreasonable complaining than accepting. I guess the truth may be subjective on that one.

[h2co-pilot]

So......is the government taking away your liberties or are the terrorists?

When we fought the Nazis, the Japanese- hell way back, even the Mongols had a way of identifying themselves. This is new times. We are fighting a "predator" that blends in. Cowards. Virus. We have to put a little antibiotics in our blood. BFD.

This isn't going to end anytime soon. Religous wars have been fought for centuries.

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by h2co-pilot

So......is the government taking away your liberties or are the terrorists?

Why do these have to be mutally exclusive? My answer would be "BOTH".

[MarineHawk]

"This Court has gone far toward accepting the doctrine that civil liberty means the removal of all restraints from these crowds and that all local attempts to maintain order are impairments of the liberty of the citizen. The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the Court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson - Terminiello v. Chicago, 1949.

[Bully13]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

I hate Starbucks because of their gun control contributions. We need to start a new chain of NRA cafes.

AHOY Cafe?

[DennisAJC]

Originally Posted by Bully13

AHOY Cafe?

AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!