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Go Back   Hummer Forums by Elcova > Hummer H2 Discussion Forums > The Woodshed

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  #1  
Old 02-13-2007, 04:04 AM
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunner
Whoa horsey. I don't make attacks that was just about as silly as your statements. I made my comment because it sounded like a very negative attitude like all these people are lying about their products. Nobody is going to make you buy anything to improve performance. I do know some that dynoed with positive results. It just hit me that "here is somebody else that wants an education by getting people to do the research for him and still be doubtful of the results." So don't worry about it. I personally bought a PCM outright and have one programmed, end of problem.
I also have a diesel and it's a 95 Cummins and it's all mechanical to modify it. No electronic mumbo jumbo you actually have to get your hands dirty. I dynoed it at each stage and the same type of products showed positive results. But what does that have to do with a H3 I-5 except it tows mine real good on long hauls. What the heck something worked!

Fair enough, just asking a few questions, stating a few observations before I screwed with the brain on my Hummer. I didn't know there was a check valve on the dialogue. I'll just take other people's word for things now? I'm not doubting so much as asking pointed questions about what they're doing and how they're getting results that you guys are impressed with.

How much is a new brain, how much does it cost to get it programmed at the dealer should things go wrong? If the tranny pukes a week after it's installed, is Hummer going to deny the expensive claim? The reason I'm making a big deal about this is that I'm probably going to do the programming, just need a few questions answered before I hassle with it.
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  #2  
Old 02-13-2007, 02:24 PM
31sonic 31sonic is offline
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Keliente what would the cost be to buy a pcm outright with a tune ?
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  #3  
Old 02-17-2007, 10:35 PM
JWSchmidt3 JWSchmidt3 is offline
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by keliente
So...bottom line. Is this tune going to be like bolting on a supercharger? No. Is it one of the best things you can do for the money? Absofreakin'loutely.

Thanks for replying Kelly.

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  #4  
Old 02-21-2007, 06:52 AM
HummBebe HummBebe is offline
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by keliente
You will see graphs from the colorado/canyon, which shares the same engine. Your problem with the H3 is that the AWD is going to eat up a little more power, but that doesn't mean great gains can't be had. Like I said before...this isn't just like bolting on an exhaust and getting 10 hp and a cool sound at wide open throttle. This is something that benefits you during your entire drive cycle, whether you've got it matted to the floor or not.


Awwww man, I almost went for it. Until I read this paragraph.

First the H3 is not AWD. There is a difference. PCM for less AND Rancho need to get this right before you will get an ounce of respect from me.

Splitting hairs....maybe.

Colorado/Canyon share the same engine, but from the factory they are tuned differently.

YOUR LINK IS TO A 2-3 YEAR OLD CANYON TUNE.

Please provide an updated tune...in private if you must.

teh proof is in teh puddin'.
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  #5  
Old 02-23-2007, 04:10 AM
keliente
 
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by HummBebe
Awwww man, I almost went for it. Until I read this paragraph.

First the H3 is not AWD. There is a difference. PCM for less AND Rancho need to get this right before you will get an ounce of respect from me.

Splitting hairs....maybe.

Colorado/Canyon share the same engine, but from the factory they are tuned differently.

YOUR LINK IS TO A 2-3 YEAR OLD CANYON TUNE.

Please provide an updated tune...in private if you must.

teh proof is in teh puddin'.

You're right - it is in 'teh puddin'. Look how many satisfied customers I have on this board and I don't even sponsor it yet
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  #6  
Old 02-23-2007, 04:28 AM
HummBebe HummBebe is offline
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Nice....so no updated tune? Even a PM?
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  #7  
Old 02-23-2007, 04:29 AM
HummBebe HummBebe is offline
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Can you factor in an additional 500lbs in gear?
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  #8  
Old 02-23-2007, 05:18 AM
keliente
 
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by HummBebe
Nice....so no updated tune? Even a PM?

I'm not sure what you mean by updated tune? I do each one as it comes in?
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  #9  
Old 02-23-2007, 06:15 AM
HummBebe HummBebe is offline
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Meaning a graph with all those little squiggly lines on it..., that was done for an H3. Recently.

I can understand if you don't want to share proprietary information with the whole whirrled.

What about changing the shift points for hauling around a set of 35's, a roof rack, front winch bumper, winch, rock rail-side steps, 2 roof ladders and a rear bumper?

Can it do that? I'm really curious, I'm a girl, you know.....kinda dumb when it comes to all this techie stuff.
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  #10  
Old 02-23-2007, 07:20 AM
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Let's see it please. Nothing proprietary about the graph requested.
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  #11  
Old 02-23-2007, 04:04 PM
keliente
 
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by HummBebe
Meaning a graph with all those little squiggly lines on it..., that was done for an H3. Recently.

I can understand if you don't want to share proprietary information with the whole whirrled.

What about changing the shift points for hauling around a set of 35's, a roof rack, front winch bumper, winch, rock rail-side steps, 2 roof ladders and a rear bumper?

Can it do that? I'm really curious, I'm a girl, you know.....kinda dumb when it comes to all this techie stuff.

Yes...the shift points are a large part of what we are doing with the transmission tuning. Some of our people on here have the 35's with the tune and tell us it makes a substantial difference.

I do not have any recent H3 graphs, sorry. The majority of truck folks (all trucks, not just H3) that stop by in person to get a tune aren't interested in ponying up the extra cash to get on the dyno. They want the seat of the pants difference...noticeable power, better shifting, etc etc and aren't really interested in knowing what it makes on the dyno.
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  #12  
Old 02-24-2007, 02:57 AM
ChevyHighPerformance ChevyHighPerformance is offline
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by HummBebe
Meaning a graph with all those little squiggly lines on it..., that was done for an H3. Recently.

I can understand if you don't want to share proprietary information with the whole whirrled.

What about changing the shift points for hauling around a set of 35's, a roof rack, front winch bumper, winch, rock rail-side steps, 2 roof ladders and a rear bumper?

Can it do that? I'm really curious, I'm a girl, you know.....kinda dumb when it comes to all this techie stuff.

I just looked at the stock PCM program for the 04, 05, 06 colorado I5 and the 06 H3. The high octane timing table is essentially the same (there are very small differences at low RPMs and low cylinder airmass) for all these vehicles/years. The WOT timing is identical. The commanded air/fuel ratio is identical. The timing and the A/F ratio are the major items that control engine performance. I would look at this 04 Canyon dyno curve and ratio the performance gain.

http://www.pcmforless.com/images/dyn...s/04Canyon.jpg

Stock 166 HP, tuned 182 HP -> ~10% increase in peak power

Stock 174 TQ, tuned 188 TQ -> ~8% increase in peak torque

It's reasonable to assume that the H3 would gain 10% HP and 8% torque with the same tune and octane fuel. This would make the 06's 220 HP -> ~ 242 HP about same as the 3.7L 2007.

The percenatage gain at the wheels would be the same, but the actual gain (delta HP gain) would be less since we have more drivetrain loss than the colorado/canyon. So, the 04 Canyon's HP gain of 16 HP at the wheels might be ~13 HP at the wheels for the H3.

A region that doesn't show up on the dyno plots is the off-idle power/torque. The custom tune really helps in this low RPM range but the range is rarely dyno'd (only felt by the seat-of-the-pants).

The other benefits of the custom tune are better idle quality, better auto tranny shifting RPM/speed and firmness, and many people see an improvement in MPG.

I think PCMforLess has a dynojet (front or rear wheels only) but not a 4-wheel dyno. 4-wheel dynos are expensive and pretty rare to come by and expensive. The problem is that not all wheelbases are the same so it becomes a business return-on-investment issue to buy a 4-wheel dyno. When I was publishing truck articles, I think I was the only person that could dyno an all-wheel drive/4-wheel drive vehicle within my state and all the nearby states.

I wouldn't take the lack of a dyno as something bad.
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  #13  
Old 02-25-2007, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Add me to the list of happy PCMforless customers.

I am about as hard-a$$ed when it comes to performance tunes as anyone and more than most. Ask Superchips, Powerchips and Absolut - I have worked with them all with a variety of cars and none were happy with my published and private comments. I dyno'ed my car before and after every single chip change (after doing whatever the chipper suggested was proper break-in) and not once did the dyno back up their claims.

On the other hand, my impression of the PCMforless tune is that "yes" there is modest improvement in power - let's face it 10-15 difference will not be noticeable in vehicles weighing what our H3s weigh. I was most interested in addressing shift points, the lousy feeling of "lugging" all of the time AND having it reprogrammed to account for my 35" MTs. Well, I got what i paid for and am very happy with it. My speedo now correlates with my GPS speed, it doesn't lug as it had, it does feel more peppy AND my gas mileage, which ahd dropped to 12 mpg (corrected for the odometer error associated with larger tires) when I went with 315/75-16 BFG MTs is now back up to 15mpg.
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  #14  
Old 02-25-2007, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

x2
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  #15  
Old 02-25-2007, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

I'd like to know exactly what changes are done to the base map. Spill it all out. I train Harley Davidson techs on fuel injection tuning in my spare time, so I understand maps etc.

If you are not tuning on a dyno and have no dyno maps for the H3, then you are telling me you are winging it and probably doing nothing more that bumping up the timing or slightly modifying someone elses canned maps.

Sounds to me as if you guys are paying half as much for a hand held programmer and only getting a single map and no hand-held programmer. On top of that you have to deal with this loaner ECM crap. THen do it each time you want to make a change? How is this a good deal, I'd like to know?

You guys are paying this turd a rediculous amount of money for hardly nothing. He bought the tuning software, makes a 10 second change and charges you how much?

I tell you what, I will do what he's doing and 10 times better for less money. I will take my wifes H3 down to the dyno and custom tune every cell in the map (which I gurantee this turd does not do!) and completely blow his maps away and have the dyno results to prove it.

Bottom line, if he's not dyno tuning every single vehicle, then you are getting a "canned" map and not custom tuned for your vehicle. Do yourself a favor and just by a hand-held programmer. they are very easy to use. If you want more than that, get the custom mapping done on a dyno.

Last edited by tomp : 02-25-2007 at 05:46 PM.
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  #16  
Old 02-25-2007, 07:05 PM
ChevyHighPerformance ChevyHighPerformance is offline
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomp
I'd like to know exactly what changes are done to the base map. Spill it all out. I train Harley Davidson techs on fuel injection tuning in my spare time, so I understand maps etc.

If you are not tuning on a dyno and have no dyno maps for the H3, then you are telling me you are winging it and probably doing nothing more that bumping up the timing or slightly modifying someone elses canned maps.

Sounds to me as if you guys are paying half as much for a hand held programmer and only getting a single map and no hand-held programmer. On top of that you have to deal with this loaner ECM crap. THen do it each time you want to make a change? How is this a good deal, I'd like to know?

You guys are paying this turd a rediculous amount of money for hardly nothing. He bought the tuning software, makes a 10 second change and charges you how much?

I tell you what, I will do what he's doing and 10 times better for less money. I will take my wifes H3 down to the dyno and custom tune every cell in the map (which I gurantee this turd does not do!) and completely blow his maps away and have the dyno results to prove it.

Bottom line, if he's not dyno tuning every single vehicle, then you are getting a "canned" map and not custom tuned for your vehicle. Do yourself a favor and just by a hand-held programmer. they are very easy to use. If you want more than that, get the custom mapping done on a dyno.

"I'd like to know exactly what changes are done to the base map. Spill it all out. I train Harley Davidson techs on fuel injection tuning in my spare time, so I understand maps etc."

Why would a tuning company divulge what numbers they change on every tables? How does this make for good business sense?

"If you are not tuning on a dyno and have no dyno maps for the H3, then you are telling me you are winging it and probably doing nothing more that bumping up the timing or slightly modifying someone elses canned maps."

Actually, most real tuners (like LPE) tune so far on the dyno then finalize it on the track/street/strip. The problem is that the inertial dynos (and some other dynos) don't load down the vehicle (or motorcycle) as it is actaully loaded on the road. How do you account for the various riders' heights/frontal areas when loading down the bike when dyno tuning to get the proper aerodynamic drag for proper drivetrain loading? Yeah, that's what I thought.

"Sounds to me as if you guys are paying half as much for a hand held programmer and only getting a single map and no hand-held programmer. On top of that you have to deal with this loaner ECM crap. THen do it each time you want to make a change? How is this a good deal, I'd like to know?"

A Hypertech handheld or Jet performance piggyback isn't going to get you to the customization of a personal tune.

"You guys are paying this turd a rediculous amount of money for hardly nothing. He bought the tuning software, makes a 10 second change and charges you how much?"

Do you know these people? Have you done any research? So far I have not seen any complaints about PCMforLess on here, other H3 forums, and colorado/canyon forums.

"I tell you what, I will do what he's doing and 10 times better for less money. I will take my wifes H3 down to the dyno and custom tune every cell in the map (which I gurantee this turd does not do!) and completely blow his maps away and have the dyno results to prove it."

Shut up and do it. Post all of your table changes. Strap your wife's H3 on to your motorcycle dyno and see what happens. (pssst don't stand in front of the H3) Some simple questions:

1) What load are you going to place on the wheels for each cell?
2) How many VE tables does the H3 use?
3) The programming has a table that adjusts timing for different intake air temperatures. Is your dyno in an evironmentally controlled room so that you can tune every cell in the map for every possible intake temperature from -40 to 248 F (since this is the table range).
4) The programming has a table that adjusts timing for engine coolant temperatures. Do you have a coolant heater/cooler to adjust water temperature (over -4 to 284 F - since this is the table range) so that you can tune every cell in the map.

How are you going to do 10 times better? How do you meaure the improvement - horsepower gain? So, if PCMforLess produces 15 HP gain you are going to produce a 150 horsepower gain?

"Bottom line, if he's not dyno tuning every single vehicle, then you are getting a "canned" map and not custom tuned for your vehicle. Do yourself a favor and just by a hand-held programmer. they are very easy to use. If you want more than that, get the custom mapping done on a dyno."

Why would you pay twice as much for a canned map from a hand-held programmer?
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  #17  
Old 02-25-2007, 07:22 PM
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

I guess everyone's entitled to their opinions.

Personally, I'm placing my order for a PCM tune this afternoon.

I have read the threads on PCM for Less on Elcova and on
Hummerforums.com - EVERYONE that has gotten a tune has
been happy with it. There was a major skeptic on Hummerforums
that I understand in the beginning gave major flack about this company
and its tunes, well now he has one of their tunes and is SUPER HAPPY with the tune.

I'm putting 315's on my truck and this tune will do what I want it to:
correct the shift points, show the correct mileage on the speedometer/odometer and give me a smoother ride. I will also get some other benefits as other posters/threads have mentioned, for me that will be great!

ChevyHighPerformance and others with the technical knowledge that I don't have, have looked into this company and are satisfied - so that is good enough for me for what I need done.


If you don't like or care for the company - then don't buy their product.
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  #18  
Old 02-25-2007, 07:55 PM
keliente
 
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

It is evident to me that tomp doesn't even have the slightest idea of what I do. It is more than changing one map, my friend.

I don't feel as if I have to respond to his post, seeing as I am just a turd anyway.
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  #19  
Old 02-25-2007, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by keliente
It is evident to me that tomp doesn't even have the slightest idea of what I do. It is more than changing one map, my friend.

I don't feel as if I have to respond to his post, seeing as I am just a turd anyway.

Somehow, I knew you wouldn't respond. Know need to post exact cell numbers, and I never asked for that. But you know you are way overcharging for the few seconds of changes you are doing to each ECM.

(Patiently awaiting your next dance move)
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  #20  
Old 02-25-2007, 08:36 PM
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Default Re: Great results from PCM for Less tuning . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevyHighPerformance
"I'd like to know exactly what changes are done to the base map. Spill it all out. I train Harley Davidson techs on fuel injection tuning in my spare time, so I understand maps etc."

Why would a tuning company divulge what numbers they change on every tables? How does this make for good business sense?

"If you are not tuning on a dyno and have no dyno maps for the H3, then you are telling me you are winging it and probably doing nothing more that bumping up the timing or slightly modifying someone elses canned maps."

Actually, most real tuners (like LPE) tune so far on the dyno then finalize it on the track/street/strip. The problem is that the inertial dynos (and some other dynos) don't load down the vehicle (or motorcycle) as it is actaully loaded on the road. How do you account for the various riders' heights/frontal areas when loading down the bike when dyno tuning to get the proper aerodynamic drag for proper drivetrain loading? Yeah, that's what I thought.

"Sounds to me as if you guys are paying half as much for a hand held programmer and only getting a single map and no hand-held programmer. On top of that you have to deal with this loaner ECM crap. THen do it each time you want to make a change? How is this a good deal, I'd like to know?"

A Hypertech handheld or Jet performance piggyback isn't going to get you to the customization of a personal tune.

"You guys are paying this turd a rediculous amount of money for hardly nothing. He bought the tuning software, makes a 10 second change and charges you how much?"

Do you know these people? Have you done any research? So far I have not seen any complaints about PCMforLess on here, other H3 forums, and colorado/canyon forums.

"I tell you what, I will do what he's doing and 10 times better for less money. I will take my wifes H3 down to the dyno and custom tune every cell in the map (which I gurantee this turd does not do!) and completely blow his maps away and have the dyno results to prove it."

Shut up and do it. Post all of your table changes. Strap your wife's H3 on to your motorcycle dyno and see what happens. (pssst don't stand in front of the H3) Some simple questions:

1) What load are you going to place on the wheels for each cell?
2) How many VE tables does the H3 use?
3) The programming has a table that adjusts timing for different intake air temperatures. Is your dyno in an evironmentally controlled room so that you can tune every cell in the map for every possible intake temperature from -40 to 248 F (since this is the table range).
4) The programming has a table that adjusts timing for engine coolant temperatures. Do you have a coolant heater/cooler to adjust water temperature (over -4 to 284 F - since this is the table range) so that you can tune every cell in the map.

How are you going to do 10 times better? How do you meaure the improvement - horsepower gain? So, if PCMforLess produces 15 HP gain you are going to produce a 150 horsepower gain?

"Bottom line, if he's not dyno tuning every single vehicle, then you are getting a "canned" map and not custom tuned for your vehicle. Do yourself a favor and just by a hand-held programmer. they are very easy to use. If you want more than that, get the custom mapping done on a dyno."

Why would you pay twice as much for a canned map from a hand-held programmer?

-I never asked for the exact numbers
-It's called a "Load Controlled Dyno" since you don't know
-Exactly wht I referred to a custom tune on a dyno my unknowing friend
-Don't need to know them, just know what they are charging and not doing a thorough tune on top of that. Simply they are making changes by loading canned maps and no personalization is done in the form of a custom tune.
-I have access to auto & bike load-controlled dynos and even 4-wheel drive dyno with load control
-A map can be 10 times better because there is more than just wide open throttle increases. There are variations in VE, (MAP) Manifold Absolute Pressure, throttle position, timing, engine temp, outside temp, etc. There are thousands of different combinations and variances in these different cells, so there can be much more than a 10x improvement/comparison.
-Yes, the Dyno rooms are temp controlled, exhaust evacuation, and forced air provided for cooling. Each Cylinder is also probed and can be tuned independently if you want to get extreme.

And your post is nothing more than a desperate attempt....LOL
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