VA Tech

[K9sH3]

I watched as VATech held their candle light cermony tonight, Man I wish I wouldn't watch the news.. I work with kids everyday and I just think of what it must be like to be that parent that has to get the call...That is has to be numbing to the soul.
Like most teachers ( which I am not a school teacher) I try to teach the kids right from wrong and how to be a good person.. As we watched on Monday at the Sk8 park, the kids were looking at me for some answers. I saw in thier eyes the true meaning of being kids. And I couldn't explain such an horrific act by another human. I am sure Thursday when I get back I will be able to talk some more with them.

[Scouts Out]

I have just stopped watching the news, it is so depressing. I have experienced the suicide bombers, the terrorist, being shot at, rocketed, mortored, lost friends over seas. This being close to home, close to the age of my kids... that sad.

[Huck BB62]

Hey, I got it! They should outlaw chains!

On a serious note, people really need to start being aware of their surroundings. If that guy was on the forum here, he'd been ratted out fifteen ways to hell and back (cause nobody'd be worried about huwtin' his wittle feewin's) or looking racists.

I'd also like for some common sense gun store owners to ask questions and quit worrying about making a buck so badly. I'm dead serious, I was standing in the gun store checkin' out a new Kimber and the lunkhead salesman was pumpin' info to this gang banger nutjob about why this gun is better than this one etc. When the banger left, I gave the counter guy an earful and asked him if he'd SERIOUSLY SELL A GUN TO THAT guy!

Same thing about this slaughterhouse turd. No idle chit chat about the gun's useage? No questions about training etc.? There's a sign on the wall "We reserve the right to sell a gun to anyone and not to just anyone!" I guarantee you that five minutes of conversation with someone with this mentality would more than trigger an alarm.

First question: Why would anyone in their right mind sell a gun to someone that lives on campus? Ding frickin' ding ding ding.

I'm not a gun control guy. I shoot almost every day. What I'm in favor of is a little common sense.

Oh, by the way, when a terrorist or bad guy starts lining you up for slaughter, fight back. Get together and attack. He's not trained, somebody's getting through. It's a lot better than being popped like a pig in a sausage factory.

The massive news coverage on this is surely training the next psycho to do a better job. The good news is that he DID use a gun. Had he been truly wicked, he'd done a bomb during those huge rallies they have. I know that sounds morbid but look around us. Look at Iraq. I'm glad the guy was a dumbass and used a gun instead of a bomb, or else he'd have killed hundreds.

[deserth3]

Originally Posted by Huck BB62

Hey, I got it! They should outlaw chains!

On a serious note, people really need to start being aware of their surroundings. If that guy was on the forum here, he'd been ratted out fifteen ways to hell and back (cause nobody'd be worried about huwtin' his wittle feewin's) or looking racists.

I'd also like for some common sense gun store owners to ask questions and quit worrying about making a buck so badly. I'm dead serious, I was standing in the gun store checkin' out a new Kimber and the lunkhead salesman was pumpin' info to this gang banger nutjob about why this gun is better than this one etc. When the banger left, I gave the counter guy an earful and asked him if he'd SERIOUSLY SELL A GUN TO THAT guy!

Same thing about this slaughterhouse turd. No idle chit chat about the gun's useage? No questions about training etc.? There's a sign on the wall "We reserve the right to sell a gun to anyone and not to just anyone!" I guarantee you that five minutes of conversation with someone with this mentality would more than trigger an alarm.

First question: Why would anyone in their right mind sell a gun to someone that lives on campus? Ding frickin' ding ding ding.

I'm not a gun control guy. I shoot almost every day. What I'm in favor of is a little common sense.

Oh, by the way, when a terrorist or bad guy starts lining you up for slaughter, fight back. Get together and attack. He's not trained, somebody's getting through. It's a lot better than being popped like a pig in a sausage factory.

The massive news coverage on this is surely training the next psycho to do a better job. The good news is that he DID use a gun. Had he been truly wicked, he'd done a bomb during those huge rallies they have. I know that sounds morbid but look around us. Look at Iraq. I'm glad the guy was a dumbass and used a gun instead of a bomb, or else he'd have killed hundreds.

I agree. If half the people who got killed started throughing books, pens, cell phones, backpacks, chairs or even desk at this kid a lot more of them wouuld have lived. It's difficult to aim a gun if all sort of stuff is flying at you.
We are teaching our kids the wrong thing in school. Instead of sitting there and being passive they should teach them how to defened themselves and ask questions.

[K9sH3]

Originally Posted by deserth3

I agree. If half the people who got killed started throughing books, pens, cell phones, backpacks, chairs or even desk at this kid a lot more of them wouuld have lived. It's difficult to aim a gun if all sort of stuff is flying at you.
We are teaching our kids the wrong thing in school. Instead of sitting there and being passive they should teach them how to defened themselves and ask questions.

[BlueTJCO]

Originally Posted by deserth3

I agree. If half the people who got killed started throughing books, pens, cell phones, backpacks, chairs or even desk at this kid a lot more of them wouuld have lived. It's difficult to aim a gun if all sort of stuff is flying at you.
We are teaching our kids the wrong thing in school. Instead of sitting there and being passive they should teach them how to defened themselves and ask questions.

I thought the same thing..........

except that is real easy to say sitting here entering IP Addresses into computers here in my office. I bet if someone started popping off with two handguns in the office next to me it would be a whole different story...........but I dont know.

I'd love to say I'd be that one "lucky" guy that stopped the shooter.....but I'm guessing under the circumstances that would be much easier said then done.........

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by Mooncricket

I'd love to say I'd be that one "lucky" guy that stopped the shooter.....but I'm guessing under the circumstances that would be much easier said then done.........

I'd like to say the same thing. Of course, if I saved the 30 people from dying, no one would ever know that. Instead, you'd see the Reuters and ABC story about how some gun-crazed guy who violated a Gun Free School Zone by carrying a concealed handgun into a classroom violently shot another crazy gun nut and then went to jail.

[MarineHawk]

A little dated, but still valid:

Originally Posted by Prof. John Lott

Hardly mentioned in the massive news coverage of the school-related shootings during the past year is how they ended. Two of the four shootings were stopped by a citizen displaying a gun. In the October 1997 shooting spree at a high school in Pearl, Miss., which left two students dead, an assistant principal retrieved a gun from his car and physically immobilized the shooter while waiting for the police.

More recently, the school-related shooting in Edinboro, Pa., which left one teacher dead, was stopped only after a bystander pointed a shotgun at the shooter when he started to reload his gun. The police did not arrive for another 10 minutes.
Who knows how many lives were saved by these prompt responses?
Anecdotal stories are not sufficient to resolve this debate. Together with my colleague William Landes, I have compiled data on all the multiple-victim public shootings occurring in the U.S. from 1977 to 1995. Included were incidents where at least two people were killed or injured in a public place; to focus on the type of shooting seen in the Ferguson rampage, we excluded gang wars or shootings that were the byproduct of another crime, such as robbery. The U.S. averaged 21 such shootings annually, with an average of 1.8 people killed and 2.7 wounded in each one.
We examined a range of different gun laws, such as waiting periods as well as methods of deterrence, such as the death penalty. However, only one policy was found to reduce deaths and injuries from these shootings: allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns. The effect of "shall-issue" concealed handgun laws, which give adults the right to carry concealed handguns if they do not have a criminal record or a history of significant mental illness, was dramatic. Thirty-one states now have such laws. When states passed them during the 19 years we studied, the number of multiple-victim public shootings declined by 84%. Deaths from these shootings plummeted on average by 90%, injuries by 82%. Higher arrest rates and increased use of the death penalty slightly reduced the incidence of these events, but we could not conclusively determine such an effect.

http://www.junkscience.com/news2/lott2.html

Another one:

Originally Posted by Massad Ayoob

A terrorist opens fire at a crowded bus stop; a passing Israeli motorist draws his 9mm pistol and cuts him down. A late-arriving security man with an M-16 hoses the twitching terrorist just to make sure.

Another terrorist attempts to trigger an explosive device in a public place. An Israeli housewife draws her pistol and shoots him dead before he can detonate the bomb. The would-be martyr dies alone.
A third terrorist opens fire with an automatic weapon in an Israeli school. What could have been a mass murder on the scale of Columbine or greater is limited to a very short casualty list when Israeli parents and grandparents, who have provided volunteer armed security after receiving state training, open fire and kill him with their concealed pistols.

Note that in each of these episodes, it was an armed citizen who stopped the terror. Not a soldier. Not a security guard. Not a police officer. Just as wolves do not try to seize a lamb under the nose of the sheepdog, terrorists do not strike where armed protectors are known to be present. They scout the turf and select their victims more carefully than that.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob81.html

[KenP]

Originally Posted by Huck BB62

First question: Why would anyone in their right mind sell a gun to someone that lives on campus? Ding frickin' ding ding ding.

His ID had his parent's address.

Some in the news are making it sound as if you can just walk in and get a gun in Virginia without any checks done. That's not true. You do have a background check done whether the gun is purchased at a store or a gun show.

There's no need for armchair quaterbacking here.

No one could expect ANY gun store owner to research the killer's school writings or history. That's just silly.

The murderer wasn't ever convicted of anything. Nothing would show up on his background check.

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by KenP

No one could expect ANY gun store owner to research the killer's school writings or history. That's just silly.

The murderer wasn't ever convicted of anything. Nothing would show up on his background check.

But he was Asian, just like Ghengis Khan. I'm just saying.

[KenP]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

But he was Asian, just like Ghengis Khan. I'm just saying.

Just a joke. Dennis knows we love him.

[Huck BB62]

Originally Posted by KenP

His ID had his parent's address.

Some in the news are making it sound as if you can just walk in and get a gun in Virginia without any checks done. That's not true. You do have a background check done whether the gun is purchased at a store or a gun show.

There's no need for armchair quaterbacking here.

No one could expect ANY gun store owner to research the killer's school writings or history. That's just silly.

The murderer wasn't ever convicted of anything. Nothing would show up on his background check.

Sounds like a nice cop-out. All I'm saying is there's a total lack of common sense. There's been a lot of (well, he didn't have a record so...) At THAT PARTICULAR STORE there's been five murders committed with weapons sold from there.

If we intend to maintain our right to bear arms, and that's my point here, we need and must do more than say things like "He didn't have a record". When a quiet sullen guy shows up with no buddies to buy a gun and you just sell it to him, dontcha think that a little talking may be in order? We've got to get smart, or we're going to get legislated out of existance.

It's more than apparent that EVERY SINGLE PERSON that came into contact with this nut had alarms going off in every brain cell that he wasn't right in the head.

About the Monday morning quarter backing remark: Yeah, I get to do that, and you should too because this is most friggin' certainly going to affect you and I. Next time you're at the gun counter and you see a questionable person buying a gun, it's certainly within your rights to talk to him. Why? Because you, as a salesmen of weapons, will be under the microscope and may lose your business and go to jail.

Quick questions like "What kind of shooting do you like to do?" "Where do you practice?" "This hollow point ammo is kind of expensive for plinkin' ain't it?" "Where do you store your guns? Would you like to see our safes?"

I guarantee you that he'd stumble on one or more of those questions enough to cause concern.

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by Huck BB62

First question: Why would anyone in their right mind sell a gun to someone that lives on campus? Ding frickin' ding ding ding.

Second question: Why the fcuk not?

When I was in college in the 1980s living on campus, I bought a shotgun, which is about as deadly as you can get. I kept it at my brother's house. I used it to shoot doves, quail, and clay pidgeons.

It was stupid for them not to let me keep it in my dorm room. In some countries, like Switzerland, college-aged male ADULTS are in the militia and required to have their issued semi-auto rifle in their dwellings whether on campus or not. I bet you they don't have a lot of mass shootings on campus in Switzerland (which has the lowest violent crime rate in the Western world).

[Huck BB62]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

Sceond question: Why the fcuk not?

When I was in college in the 1980s living on campus, I bought a shotgun, which is about as deadly as you can get. I kept it at my brother's house. I used it to shoot doves, quail, and clay pidgeons.

It was stupid for them not to let me keep it in my dorm room. In some countries, like Switzerland, college-aged male ADULTS are in the militia and required to have their issued semi-auto rifle in their dwellings whether on campus or not. I bet you they don't have a lot of mass shootings on campus in Switzerland (which has the lowest violent crime rate in the Western world).

Well, times have changed. I guess here, where a UL listed gunsafe is required, maybe.

My second response to that Marinehawk (and I completely understand your consternation) is that this batch of kids are put together the same way as in years past. Yeah, we partied, we had fun, but we also had a very deep respect for the right and wrong. Have you looked at collegehumor.com, youtube and myspace? Yeah, I WOULD WANT a gun being around these kids, but they have a real disconnect from the real world if you ask me. (you college agers go ahead and unload, I stand firm) Nobody's saying they're all whacked out, I'm saying the percentages are way different, it's a far cry from "Leave it to Beaver" days.

For instance, a story recently aired where the HR people were searching myspace about their applicants. This guy (hmm, an oriental guy) was all cheesed because he never got interviews. On myspace he had all his partying stuff, and bragging about cheating in college on there. It was his opinion that this info shouldn't be used against him if he wanted to work for you!!??!!?? Another was this chick that was a real party animal, her blog read worse than a copy of the Happy Hooker. It was also her opinion that one thing had nothing to do with another. What do you guys think?

Again, if we don't get some common sense going here, we're going to lose it all.

[MarineHawk]

I guess we just disagree Huck. There were crazy-looking people with mohawks walking around the KU campus when I was there talking to themselves. I don't think that that should have been a reason to tell me that I could not own a shotgun. I will never move to California because of all the crazy laws and regs there.

Generally, when you have a country like ours where there are almost as many firearms as people, regardless of whether it would be good or not, you're never going to be able to make guns unavalable to the whackos. Lott's studies and common sense tell me that the more good, responsible people responsibly keeping loaded firearms around, the more outgunned the bad guys are.

People who don't have guns in D.C. (almost 100% of the population) live in fear because the criminals there commit crimes with impunity unless they run into a cop. People who don't have guns in places where guns are legal are safer (the statistics really do prove it) because the criminals don't know they don't have guns. In D.C., the criminals are pretty sure the single woman in the condo is unnarmed and fair game.

[MarineHawk]

This is interesting:

BLACKSBURG, Va. — A Virginia district court found that Virginia Tech killer Cho Seung-Hui was "mentally ill" and was an "imminent danger to others," according to a 2005 temporary detention order.
Cho "is mentally ill and in need of hospitalization, and presents an imminent danger to self or others as mental illness, or is seriously mentally ill as to be substantially unable to care for self, and is incapable of volunteering or unwilling to volunteer for treatment," reads the order, obtained by FOX News.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266683,00.html

There's another one coming:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1
That guy is a ticking time bomb too, but I do understand his fluorescent light bulb anger thing.

[NewHummerGuy]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

This is interesting:

BLACKSBURG, Va. ? A Virginia district court found that Virginia Tech killer Cho Seung-Hui was "mentally ill" and was an "imminent danger to others," according to a 2005 temporary detention order.
Cho "is mentally ill and in need of hospitalization, and presents an imminent danger to self or others as mental illness, or is seriously mentally ill as to be substantially unable to care for self, and is incapable of volunteering or unwilling to volunteer for treatment," reads the order, obtained by FOX News.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266683,00.html

There's another one coming:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1
That guy is a ticking time bomb too, but I do understand his fluorescent light bulb anger thing.

Yeah, but the only problem with the Colorado kid (judging from his dads remarks) is that they will sue the college and probably win for violating his amendments . Then after that his son will murder several people.

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by Huck BB62

Well, times have changed. I guess here, where a UL listed gunsafe is required, maybe.

My second response to that Marinehawk (and I completely understand your consternation) is that this batch of kids are put together the same way as in years past. Yeah, we partied, we had fun, but we also had a very deep respect for the right and wrong. Have you looked at collegehumor.com, youtube and myspace? Yeah, I WOULD WANT a gun being around these kids, but they have a real disconnect from the real world if you ask me. (you college agers go ahead and unload, I stand firm) Nobody's saying they're all whacked out, I'm saying the percentages are way different, it's a far cry from "Leave it to Beaver" days.

For instance, a story recently aired where the HR people were searching myspace about their applicants. This guy (hmm, an oriental guy) was all cheesed because he never got interviews. On myspace he had all his partying stuff, and bragging about cheating in college on there. It was his opinion that this info shouldn't be used against him if he wanted to work for you!!??!!?? Another was this chick that was a real party animal, her blog read worse than a copy of the Happy Hooker. It was also her opinion that one thing had nothing to do with another. What do you guys think?

Again, if we don't get some common sense going here, we're going to lose it all.

Ann Coulter responded better than me:

Originally Posted by Ann Coulter

Let's make America a ?sad-free zone?! By Ann Coulter

From the attacks of 9/11 to Monday's school shooting, after every mass murder there is an overwhelming urge to "do something" to prevent a similar attack.


But since Adam ate the apple and let evil into the world, deranged individuals have existed.

Most of the time they can't be locked up until it's too late. It's not against the law to be crazy ? in some jurisdictions it actually makes you more viable as a candidate for public office.

It's certainly not against the law to be an unsociable loner. If it were, Ralph Nader would be behind bars right now, where he belongs. Mass murder is often the first serious crime unbalanced individuals are caught committing ? as appears to be in the case of the Virginia Tech shooter.

The best we can do is enact policies that will reduce the death toll when these acts of carnage occur, as they will in a free and open society of 300 million people, most of whom have cable TV.

Only one policy has ever been shown to deter mass murder: concealed-carry laws. In a comprehensive study of all public, multiple-shooting incidents in America between 1977 and 1999, the inestimable economists John Lott and Bill Landes found that concealed-carry laws were the only laws that had any beneficial effect.

And the effect was not insignificant. States that allowed citizens to carry concealed handguns reduced multiple-shooting attacks by 60 percent and reduced the death and injury from these attacks by nearly 80 percent.

Apparently, even crazy people prefer targets that can't shoot back. The reason schools are consistently popular targets for mass murderers is precisely because of all the idiotic "Gun-Free School Zone" laws.

From the people who brought you "zero tolerance," I present the Gun-Free Zone! Yippee! Problem solved! Bam! Bam! Everybody down! Hey, how did that deranged loner get a gun into this Gun-Free Zone?

It isn't the angst of adolescence. Plenty of school shootings have been committed by adults with absolutely no reason to be at the school, such as Laurie Dann, who shot up the Hubbard Woods Elementary School in Winnetka, Ill., in 1988; Patrick Purdy, who opened fire on children at Cleveland Elementary School in Stockton, Calif., in 1989; and Charles Carl Roberts, who murdered five schoolgirls at an Amish school in Lancaster County, Pa., last year.

Oh by the way, the other major "Gun-Free Zone" in America is the post office.

But instantly, on the day of the shooting at Virginia Tech, the media were already promoting gun control and pre-emptively denouncing right-wingers who point out that gun control enables murderers rather than stopping them. Liberals get to lobby for gun control, but we're disallowed from arguing back. That's how good their arguments are. They're that good.

Needless to say, Virginia Tech is a Gun-Free School Zone ? at least until last Monday. The gunman must not have known. Imagine his embarrassment! Perhaps there should be signs.

Virginia Tech even prohibits students with concealed-carry permits from carrying their guns on campus. Last year, the school disciplined a student for carrying a gun on campus, despite his lawful concealed-carry permit. If only someone like that had been in Norris Hall on Monday, this massacre could have been ended a lot sooner.

But last January, the Virginia General Assembly shot down a bill that would have prevented universities like Virginia Tech from giving sanctuary to mass murderers on college campuses in Virginia by disarming students with concealed-carry permits valid in the rest of the state.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker praised the legislature for allowing the school to disarm lawful gun owners on the faculty and student body, thereby surrendering every college campus in the state to deranged mass murderers, saying: "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Others disagreed. Writing last year about another dangerous killer who had been loose on the Virginia Tech campus, graduate student Jonathan McGlumphy wrote: "Is it not obvious that all students, faculty and staff would have been safer if (concealed handgun permit) holders were not banned from carrying their weapons on campus?"
If it wasn't obvious then, it is now.
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/coulter041907.php3

[RubHer Yellow Ducky]

I'm sorry the inncent are dead.

Lets move on......

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by RubHer Yellow Ducky

I'm sorry the inncent are dead.

Lets move on......

So am I. I didn't realize that no more discussion was allowed by anyone on how to deter this type of event.

If you don't want to read, don't click.